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-- frustrated with mastering.. I don't get it..
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frustrated with mastering.. I don't get it..

Ok so about for the past year I've been learning how to produce on logic pro, I've learned A LOT but the only thing that I havn't picked up is mastering my track.. I just don't get it, it's frustrating me, and I've watched many many videos about it.. i'm a hardcore noobie when it comes to it.

It's even getting me to the point where I decide to not even work on a track anymore because I have no hope when it comes to mastering the track and getting it to sound better quality and higher volume for the finished product..
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the main thing I do not understand is volume levels and how come my tracks hit red so often when the volumes aren't even high..
I heard that you should put the volume level of each instrument a bit down to have more headroom for final mastering? But how much is the amount that they should be put down?

Then there's times when my song starts peaking and there aren't even that many sounds going on and theyre not loud at all.. how do I avoid this or fix it; I don't get how a trance producer could have 20 sounds going on at a time while I can barely have 6 or so and it's already peaking with my volumes not even that high.. its frustrating .

the last track I was working on, it peaked to 3.0 db but the whole song sounded low..

I'm not sure what approaches I should do to mastering, it's really annoying me so bad- right now i'm saving up for studio monitors (ive been producing with sennheiser hd-ii's ) but I wouldn't be able to make use of the monitors if I can't even master a track.. how did you all learn? any tips would help please,

thanks !!

What you're describing is rather a mixing issue than a mastering issue.

When mixing you should set yourself a reference point. Most of the time, this is going to be the kick-drum or a key-sound. You also have meters showing you the peak values of each track. So if one track is already peaking at -3dB, it takes very little to pass 0dB on your master channel.

My standard method is to set my kick way lower then most of the tutorials you find will tell you. Usually it's around -9dB here.

When it comes to that I feel some peaks / transients are still too loud and not working right in the mix, it's time to reach for a compressor or subtle loudness like saturation can bring. This way you can catch the peaks, but raise the body of the sound in the same time, which can help you to find the right levels.

Forget mastering - based on your comments, that's not your problem. Spend your time learning to mix and, in particular, how to better control your peaks when mixing. The problem seems to be that you're trying to rescue a bad mix (i.e., one that has out-of-control transients, too many sounds with overlapping frequencies, etc.) with "mastering", when in reality, all you're doing is making a bad mix louder, clipping it, squashing it, etc.

A good mix requires very little mastering.

^^^Write that on a piece of paper and tape it to your monitor.

interesting.. already learning a bit from your guys posts, thanks.

but if I mix everything right and nothing is peaking and it sounds good- the volume would still sound very low wouldnt it?

I'd have to use some mastering plug ins to make it sound louder wouldnt I? like limiting and compression to bring the volume up more, or what?

+1 if not succeeding in "mastering" takes away your appetite for producing something is seriously wrong with either your production skills or expectations from mastering.

mastering is not that magic polish that suddenly puts it all together. You can't polish a turd as they say.
before this becomes topic 21.317 on "mastering"

all the magic is right there at your fingertips

I guess i confused up mixing with mastering..
I need a lot of help with my mixing knowledge..

mastering is: mono the bass, remove peaks, add some warmth (distorion) and maybe a few dB (you will probably loose dynamics though so carefull what you ask for).

what you are talking about is mixing and eqing individual channels, making them fit better. try be a bit more extreme with your eqing and always cut parts you dont want instead of enhancing the parts you want. make your sounds thinner and see if that works. sidechain a few things, highpass a few things.

its all about the mixdown imo, mastering is just a trend and its not that important in these digital days.

oh and try to aim for a smiling frequency curve (a little less midrange), it seems to be the trend these days (since the 70s, but not in the 90s somehow).

quote:

Originally posted by utdarsenal I guess i confused up mixing with mastering.. I need a lot of help with my mixing knowledge..

Mixing properly is something can take a long time to get right and comes with experience. Choosing the right sounds in the first place will make mixing the track an awful lot easier.
If you search here on the production forum you will find some threads that discuss this and try the stickies at the top of the page as well

Re: frustrated with mastering.. I don't get it..

quote:

Originally posted by utdarsenal Ok so about for the past year I've been learning how to produce on logic pro, I've learned A LOT but the only thing that I havn't picked up is mastering my track.. I just don't get it, it's frustrating me, and I've watched many many videos about it.. i'm a hardcore noobie when it comes to it. It's even getting me to the point where I decide to not even work on a track anymore because I have no hope when it comes to mastering the track and getting it to sound better quality and higher volume for the finished product.. -- the main thing I do not understand is volume levels and how come my tracks hit red so often when the volumes aren't even high.. I heard that you should put the volume level of each instrument a bit down to have more headroom for final mastering? But how much is the amount that they should be put down? Then there's times when my song starts peaking and there aren't even that many sounds going on and theyre not loud at all.. how do I avoid this or fix it; I don't get how a trance producer could have 20 sounds going on at a time while I can barely have 6 or so and it's already peaking with my volumes not even that high.. its frustrating . the last track I was working on, it peaked to 3.0 db but the whole song sounded low.. I'm not sure what approaches I should do to mastering, it's really annoying me so bad- right now i'm saving up for studio monitors (ive been producing with sennheiser hd-ii's ) but I wouldn't be able to make use of the monitors if I can't even master a track.. how did you all learn? any tips would help please, thanks !!

Good comments above - yes it's all down to mixing and it's not easy.

I'll try and throw some slightly more specific ideas in.

Bass frequencies have more of a tendency to add together than treble frequencies, so if you find your track starts peaking really easily with only a handful of sounds, it could be your kick and bass piling up... if they're both hitting the same frequency, they'll add together and go straight into the red.

Try muting one or the other to see if the peaks come back down again - if so, you've found the problem.

How to solve it? The easy way is to avoid them hitting at the same time: change your bassline so you haven't got notes on-beat.

But you might have a really nice rhythm going on where you want on-beat bass notes... which gives you 3 options:

1. Try different kick/bass sounds until you find a match which fit together without peaking
   
2. Very careful EQing: find the frequencies which the kick really acts at and use a notch filter to remove these from the bass, and vice versa
   
3. Sidechain... for it, there are enough threads on it already
   

otherwise post one of your "unmastered" tracks and we'll can probably tell where to put focus?

As a number of others have said, a quiet mix is due to excessive frequency content, most likely in the bass region. Make sure to high pass filter every sound which doesn't require extremely low frequencies (generally everything except the kick and low bass). A lot of sounds also have excessive low mid content (300-600Hz) and will need to be pushed down there. You should be able to get your mix decently loud before mastering.

If you're willing to invest some money, feel free to buy the song packs I'm selling on insidemixes. My songs are decently loud, you'll be able to see and hear how each sound sounds on its own, to fit into the overall mix. You'll also get all the info on mix settings/ decisions and so on. Or feel free to use my mixing services, I'll send back a multitrack audio file and provide details on what I've done.

Re: frustrated with mastering.. I don't get it..

quote:

Originally posted by utdarsenal how come my tracks hit red so often when the volumes aren't even high..

A lot of folk say pull down your faders, don't ever go red, but lo and behold quite a lot of very well known pros record everything hot and red, in fact some even say this is part and parcel of thier sound that others wonder at.

Mixing really is everything and it goes like this in order of priority > sound selection > sound editing > level > level automation > EQ. If you are finding things are clashing, your sound choices are wrong. Think about an orchestra - many different instruments all sounding good with no eq at all. I realise this is a little simplistic but I hope you get my general point that EQ should be the last tool in the mixing list, IMO. There are exceptions such as the bass and kick where eq is most often a necessity.

Remember EQ in one sense is not needed. You enjoy a live band without wanting to stop the performers and slap an eq on them.
EQ was only invented due to poor reording media in the early days so as to for example bring out some highs more.

I take big eq bites out of some sounds, such as the mid in a kick, but be careful as you can end up with quite a thin mix that is too clinical and digital if you cut too much.

Re: Re: frustrated with mastering.. I don't get it..

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Butler lo and behold quite a lot of very well known pros record everything hot and red, in fact some even say this is part and parcel of thier sound that others wonder at.

Yes, but that's normally in the red on an analogue mixing desk with tube preamps, where going into the red effectively applies a bit of distorted compression... not a digital mixer in a software DAW, whereby if you go over 0 dBFS it instantly squares off the waveform.

Re: Re: Re: frustrated with mastering.. I don't get it..

quote:

Originally posted by Stu Cox ...whereby if you go over 0 dBFS it instantly squares off the waveform.

...and digital clipping does not sound good by most people's standards.

0dbFS is a hard stop indeed

All good advice in this thread but if you're going to take one thing from it:

Don't even think about mastering, your issue is simply the art and techniques of mixing, which unfortunately can take years to get good at.

Leave mastering to professionals - it takes even longer to learn than mixing correctly, and even then requires superb equipment and real talent on that one area.

I don't know any pro mastering engineers who also have other jobs (i.e. mixing engineers as well). Basically, don't even go there - you can find good mastering services if you really need them.

I'm going to give the obvious noob mixing advice here:
1, Work on sound selection first - it's more important than anything else. Find sounds that sound good on their own but also work well with other sounds.

2, If you're that new to this, just use subtractive eq (i.e taking away stuff you dont want). For instance, if it's bass make sure it doesn't have a ton of other frequency content (it will be hard to manage it in your mix when combined with other borad spectrum content sounds). Most vocals don't need true sub freqeuncies in there etc etc etc. I say this becuase Additive EQ will just get messy if you don't know what you're doing. Once you do, you can always start adding...

3, To learn how to balance sounds, get everything playing in a one or two bar loop and zero the faders. Then bring them up one by one, starting with the lower frequency sounds and kick. Listen how they interact as you bring them in - it will teach you how sounds play off each other and how the do or don't sit together (and this will then help with points 1 & 2 above).

4, Don't forget to pan properly. This isn't rocket science; for the beginner, just remmeber the lower the frequency, the less pan and more central the sound should be and for bass/sub it should be mono. The higher the frequency, the more you can try to pan those sounds.

5, Don't get bogged down in FX. Just use one reverb to start with and use it as a send. This will teach you how reverbs work on different sounds and it's good engineering practise to use sends as opposed to inserting a discrete reverb on every sound. Same goes for delays/chorus/whatever. You do not need a ton of FX to make it a good track.

6, Compare your track to someone's music that you like. Import the music on an audio track so you can easily A/B against yours. Listen to figure out what they do that you like.

7, Finally, be realistic. If you're listening on PC speakers thorugh an in built soundcard, your mixes are never going to sound like prydas lastest monster does in a club.

quote:

Originally posted by clay oh and try to aim for a smiling frequency curve (a little less midrange), it seems to be the trend these days (since the 70s, but not in the 90s somehow).

How about just going with what sounds good, rather than looking at a curve?

utdarsenal, I don't have a lot of advice to give other than: post an unmastered mixdown/track you've done! Us more experienced engineers can give you advice, point you in the right direction, where to EQ, etc. It will save you a lot of the frustration you're having.

Agreed, as mentioned before just post an "unmastered" track and we'll take it from there

quote:

Originally posted by Atlantis-AR How about just going with what sounds good, rather than looking at a curve? utdarsenal, I don't have a lot of advice to give other than: post an unmastered mixdown/track you've done! Us more experienced engineers can give you advice, point you in the right direction, where to EQ, etc. It will save you a lot of the frustration you're having.

I suck at mixing too... as of late I think I'm getting better, and a lot of people tell me I am. I usually put my kick at around -10 dB, I was doing -8 but I couldn't get enough headroom, or at least it felt that way. I seem to mix quieter and quieter the more I work at it though, the other day I had to bring up all my faders because my master was peaking at -6 dB. I don't mess around with compressors on my master channel, I don't really know what I'm doing with them.

From 1993, listen from 35 secs - this is immensely well mixed - the bass really thumps in the chest and yet everything is very clear, AND LOUD!

quote:

Originally posted by Atlantis-AR How about just going with what sounds good, rather than looking at a curve?

no. smiling curve is whats popular today and has been almost half a decade.

quote:

Originally posted by clay no. smiling curve is whats popular today and has been almost half a decade.

Maybe on consumer equipment, but I certainly don't master to conform to a "smile" standard - my masters end up flat and neutral.

quote:

Originally posted by Atlantis-AR Maybe on consumer equipment, but I certainly don't master to conform to a "smile" standard - my masters end up flat and neutral.

Exactly. Let the end listener set up the smile on their EQ if they want it. In terms of a loud, solid mix, midrange is vital.

the end listener doesnt always have bass and treble control anymore. the whole chain has been fucked so its more important now than ever that we make the source as good as possible.

quote:

Originally posted by clay the end listener doesnt always have bass and treble control anymore. the whole chain has been fucked so its more important now than ever that we make the source as good as possible.

But "as good as possible" doesn't mean we strip the midrange out of our songs and leave them bass and top heavy. I haven't noticed that any of the fantastic sounding songs in my reference library have had the "disco smile" imposed on them by the producer. They have good, solid, detailed midrange.

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