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-- Ever work with someone who just doesn't get it, musically speaking......

Ever work with someone who just doesn't get it, musically speaking......

Hey forum,

I've lurked the forums from time to time for production tips and what not and would like to thank everyone for their contributions first and foremost.

My problem right now is... I produce with, and live with as well a guy who the longer i get to working with him, the more i am convinced he just doesn't get it. Now, he can lay down some nice drum tracks. We aren't big trance guys, stuff we do is more breaky and beat drive generally. But when it comes to melody or chords... any musical arrangements other than percussion, it just sounds like garbage most of the time unless it's a very simple part.

Anyway, i bring this up, because i was wondering has anyone ever worked with someone like this before? Thing is is he's totally convinced that he is making genius stuff even though his notes will be everywhere.... and he gets mad when i tell him otherwise. "I don't need no stinkin' music theory" is his general attitude... which ok maybe if you're making some weird obscure atonal music... might work but that's not the intent... Anybody relate?

sounds like you guys should work on stuff separately. Without a doubt i've had WAY better results when i've spent time on a project, sent it over to someone else, they spent THEIR own time on it and so forth. I don't always have great results when i'm sitting side by side with someone.

If the music part bothers you then you should start the project musically and let him fill in the gaps w/ what he's good at. He's right you "don't" need music theory but if what's he's making isn't resembling a song then most likely he needs some hand holding

Thanks for the input guys,

Yeah I can see maybe working separately would help, in fact, some of the best tunes we have done usually start with me making the main aspects of it and then sending it his way and he'll help with the beat and arrangement. I am horrible at building a song and he is good at that, plus he went to school for audio engineering so he does have a good idea when it comes to mixing. We are both very good at percussive elements, where the melodic part used to be a huge weakness but i've stepped it up in the last few years and have to to say i've written some pretty interesting pieces.

Problem is, is sometimes he'll come up with something that just does not go and is convinced it is good and fits perfectly.... he'll ask his friends/fam but i think we all know most of the ones closest to us are sometimes afraid to critique us. He's my best friend and i'ts hard for me but i've been doing it more and it has been causing some problems, but he needs to hear it. His ego is massive, and telling a guy like him he's not good enough or needs improvement is hard. It's just very hard working with someone who has a chord in say A minor... and writes a hook in something that doesnt' even fit any scale and is just a mess.... I know some people like atonal music but not many, myself included.... i don't mind a few "bum" notes but when every note just seems wrong i can't imagine myself doing a live show with it and being proud.... which is the goal in a few months. Kind of a live PA thing...

We did have a talk though, and came to the agreement that i'll handle the more melodic aspects and he can worry more about song structure because that seems to work the best. So hopefully this works out for the best, I wonder if this is how a lot of production duos work? One handles certain aspects and the other handles others....

if it sounds shit then you are fighting a losing battle

This sounds like a situation where you need to post your tracks on some forums and let objective/unbiased third parties tell him what they think of his melodic ideas.

quote:

Originally posted by KilldaDJ if it sounds shit then you are fighting a losing battle

He speaketh the truth.

I have a similar problem in an ambient project I work in from time to time.

I am the music theory and beat guy, and do sound design for all the leads and such, and the other guy does blur pads and only blur pads. I end up tuning and resampling everything he sends me to get it in time and in key and such. It bugs but yea...

..then why work with him?

You guys choose to produce with these guys, if they bother you just quit working with them and do your own thing. Let them do the same.

quote:

Originally posted by Kysora ..then why work with him? You guys choose to produce with these guys, if they bother you just quit working with them and do your own thing. Let them do the same.

Mostly because he has a pretty big following and he makes really, really nice blur pads.

quote:

Originally posted by Kysora ..then why work with him? You guys choose to produce with these guys, if they bother you just quit working with them and do your own thing. Let them do the same.

Well I see what you're saying, problem is is that we live together and have been best friends for a while.... he's the only other person I know that shares my love for EDM... we've lived in a small town in upstate ny for most of our lives although we moved to a semi big city.

Anyway, he does bring some things to the table, but his lack of judgement when it comes to melody/harmony just frustrates the hell outta me... i think his problem is his ego gets in the way and he can't admit to himself or anyone else that what he did might indeed be shit. I did get through to him today, told him basically let me take over that aspect and he can concentrate on the building of the songs and hopefully this proves to be much more productive... because there is no way in hell i could go on stage and seriously play our stuff with some of the melodies he's had a part in. he gave me some spiel about orbital not having any idea about music theory blah blah blah... which i have no idea is true or not. They obviously don't need it if they don't, but that doesn't mean it's not helpful... I don't even know much but that amount i've dabbled in has helped me tremendously. I should upload some examples but i'd sort of feel like a bad friend for doing so haha. I was wondering if maybe i'm just so stuck in my ways that i'm not seeing something that he is....

Now, i'm no Beethoven but i think i have at least the basics covered and generally have a good ear for something being "off"... especially for not having any formal musical training. I realize sometimes a bum note gives a song "character" sometimes you gotta go with feeling but, most songs i've studied the midi files or whatever, they follow a certain scale and most of the elements are based around it. I realize i probably sound like a layman and i am but i know enough to know you can't just throw random notes into a song and call it music... guess you could because it's open to interpretation but not too many people are going to find it pleasing.

yep, got a client at the moment who is 'self taught' he writes the songs and melodies. i record the singer and mix the tracks. the only thing you can really do in this situation is go with it and subtley change things where you can so it works better. Often they dont know why it doesnt work so they just pretend that it does. the result is often quite demented music - he dosnt understand that in a scale of c major - you cant really have 1 or 2 sharps and flats in the melody line. I do but if you point it out they get defensive and that causes issues. involving payment, which sucks

quote:

Originally posted by Vecchio i think his problem is his ego gets in the way

You think so?

Your friend sounds like a tool and quite honestly I'm embarrassed for him if he calls himself a musician.

well, i've had the opportunity to work with 3 different artists (2 currently) since i started producing, and i'm the 'no music theory' guy. never played an instrument, never took a class, do everything by guessing at it :X however, i hope i'm not THAT guy. from the start i've always been very careful to make sure whatever i put in my projects sounds in key. perhaps your partner is just tone-deaf.

sometimes, i KNOW what i'm putting together is out of key, so i'll note that in specific when sharing the project file or preview with my collaborators who have more experience on the music side of things. ill explain why i have it there (i.e. the melody should flow in this direction and that bunk note or chord is a placeholder for whatever actually works). this is strictly for the sake of moving things along

at the moment the two i work with at the moment have both been really easy going about this, usually just touching up the melodies i write (ill admit i have gotten slightly better over time, i still struggle a bit with chord progression though). however, the first person i worked with did not go as smoothly. he had the nasty habit of completely re-writing whatever i wrote to be more fitting to his musical preference entirely. i would send him a basic concept to work with, and he would end up sending me back an entirely different song with a 180 degree turn in feel. this made me realize that it comes down to outlook and end goals for the individuals - so always be straight forward with your intentions

to sum it up and end my personal rant, it sounds like the ego problem is getting in the way of the progress of your music. talk with him about it and if he wants to do his thing without you, let him - it's probably better off that way.

quote:

Originally posted by studiobob yep, got a client at the moment who is 'self taught' he writes the songs and melodies. i record the singer and mix the tracks. the only thing you can really do in this situation is go with it and subtley change things where you can so it works better. Often they dont know why it doesnt work so they just pretend that it does. the result is often quite demented music - he dosnt understand that in a scale of c major - you cant really have 1 or 2 sharps and flats in the melody line. I do but if you point it out they get defensive and that causes issues. involving payment, which sucks

Haha sounds like the problem I got... demented is a perfect example of what i'm talking about... it ends up sounding downright clownish even if he's using really lush sounds. Most of the time, he'll end up seeing it my way but sometimes he doesn't and it kinda kills the work flow. I'm glad I don't have to worry about payment, but then again... if the guys paying you you could just let him put out garbage right? Of course that might in a way reflect bad on you too so I guess it's a dilemma?

quote:

Originally posted by Excess well, i've had the opportunity to work with 3 different artists (2 currently) since i started producing, and i'm the 'no music theory' guy. never played an instrument, never took a class, do everything by guessing at it :X however, i hope i'm not THAT guy. from the start i've always been very careful to make sure whatever i put in my projects sounds in key. perhaps your partner is just tone-deaf. sometimes, i KNOW what i'm putting together is out of key, so i'll note that in specific when sharing the project file or preview with my collaborators who have more experience on the music side of things. ill explain why i have it there (i.e. the melody should flow in this direction and that bunk note or chord is a placeholder for whatever actually works). this is strictly for the sake of moving things along at the moment the two i work with at the moment have both been really easy going about this, usually just touching up the melodies i write (ill admit i have gotten slightly better over time, i still struggle a bit with chord progression though). however, the first person i worked with did not go as smoothly. he had the nasty habit of completely re-writing whatever i wrote to be more fitting to his musical preference entirely. i would send him a basic concept to work with, and he would end up sending me back an entirely different song with a 180 degree turn in feel. this made me realize that it comes down to outlook and end goals for the individuals - so always be straight forward with your intentions to sum it up and end my personal rant, it sounds like the ego problem is getting in the way of the progress of your music. talk with him about it and if he wants to do his thing without you, let him - it's probably better off that way.

Well it sounds like you're at least aware of your shortcomings in that department, and that can go a long way. I have been wondering if he's tone deaf but it's funny, if i make something sometimes he'll play something on the synths while i'm on the laptop that goes beautifully so i don't know.... But yeah, i've never been taught anything musically and can't really play an instrument but just through working with the piano roll and figuring out scales and chords, and some vids/ebooks and what not i've learned a lot and still am... and it's funny the more i learn the more i realize i knew some things instinctually but it's nice to just KNOW that certain notes should and shouldn't work... although sometimes breaking the rules creates a nice dissonant sound you just have to do it judiciously not have your whole track be one ugly mess.

But yeah, last two guys nailed it... it's the ego... it's doubly painful because i've known this guy forever, since we were kids. He's always going on and on about how talented we/he is... and sadly nobody will give him a good dose of reality and bring him down to earth. One time people did knock him, he did a remix contest for TCM a few years back and he was so convinced his was the best even though their were way more professionally done mixes... people critiqued him and he always had a retort, and acted like a sore loser afterwards. He did get in the top ten fan vote only because he bothered everyone he knew to vote, but i'm sure TCM themselves didn't even rate it. I'm the kinda guy who downplays what i do so if nothing becomes of it you don't end up looking like a jackass.... nobody takes him serious, not even his own wife which is sad... she kinda just mocks him and you can tell she has absolutely no faith in him and thinks he should just give it up... but at least she's somewhat forthcoming... all his brothers tell him how awesome it is even though its not.. and not to toot my own horn but when something good does get written it's usually because i took the bull by the horn and laid out the chords and melody.

I did talk to him last night and I think it sorta got through to him but time will tell, he's basically giving me the main say on the harmonic aspects so we'll see... would like to upload some songs soon and get some feedback. I do enjoy working with him because he isn't afraid to sound different... he's not going for "that tiesto sound" or whatever artist everyone tries to copy so i do like that, and he is great at making beats so its not all bad... but even with that he posted on facebook the other day... "i make the best beats in the world" haha i just had to laugh.... not "we" "I"... ahhh oh well, thing is is i've taught him a lot in that sense too and i'm just as good at that as he is but i digress... i'll give this a few more months and go solo or maybe find someone else to work with. I'm only living here because of this musical arrangement... so i'd have to go find my own place and it's just such a hassle that i don't wanna deal with right now, haha.

I appreciate the feedback everyone, this has been a real source of frustration for the last 5 month which is why i decided to join here and network with others even if it is online

quote:

Originally posted by Vecchio Haha sounds like the problem I got... demented is a perfect example of what i'm talking about... it ends up sounding downright clownish even if he's using really lush sounds. Most of the time, he'll end up seeing it my way but sometimes he doesn't and it kinda kills the work flow. I'm glad I don't have to worry about payment, but then again... if the guys paying you you could just let him put out garbage right? Of course that might in a way reflect bad on you too so I guess it's a dilemma?

well my thinking goes as long as he is happy with the end product then it doesnt matter too much. he is happy, and he keeps on coming back, so must be doing something right. the tracks are his vision so as long as he keeps on paying im gonna carry on!

for the record its not trance!!

sadly...

if i was working on the tracks as an actual writing partner i would long since have ditched him to move on to someone who actually had decent taste in music! sadly bills have to be paid

so my advice would be to move on and find someone you can work with who is at a similar musical level with similar ideas. not impossible to find but tricky none the less. people with too much ego can be left behind IMO

quote:

Originally posted by Vecchio although sometimes breaking the rules creates a nice dissonant sound you just have to do it judiciously not have your whole track be one ugly mess.

I like throwing in the occasional chromatic at the end of a melody to help it loop around on itself. Like the track Wisdom from clubland :P

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