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-- Mixing Downtempo/Ambient/Chillout...

Mixing Downtempo/Ambient/Chillout...

I had been using CDJ's for all of my mixing needs for the past several years, but when it comes to sets consisting entirely of the above mentioned genres, I find myself increasingly unsatisfied with their ability to provide that cohesive, fully integrated feel I'm looking for. That is, the wild variety of musical composition and structure among otherwise compatible tracks is often forcing me to settle for simple intro/outro blends when using CDJ's, which isn't what I'm aiming for.

That said, it would seem fairly apparent that this is finally the motivation I need to explore avenues of digital mixing, and I was hoping someone could point me in the right direction in regards to my concerns. I'm not asking for a tutorial on whatever is recommended to me, just an explanation of what, why, and any hardware you feel would be a solid place to start.

Thanks.

Re: Mixing Downtempo/Ambient/Chillout...

quote:

Originally posted by Paradox Lost That is, the wild variety of musical composition and structure among otherwise compatible tracks is often forcing me to settle for simple intro/outro blends when using CDJ's, which isn't what I'm aiming for.

What are you aiming for, technically? The area of music you're describing is absolutely massive, far larger and more varied than dance music, and there are innumerable different approaches and types of mix to be found. Also, what is the function of the mixes you want to create? Obviously you aren't going to be playing many live gigs with ambient, especially with the demise of chill-out rooms. If you want to create sets to listen back to, then I'd probably advise you to give up on a live setup altogether. Well-crafted ambient sets are usually the result of hours of sore-eyed laptop fiddling rather than one-take live recordings.

My Post Apocalyptic Transmissions mix was my most intricate mix and definitely not a live set. It involved multiple sound sources, layering, re-editing and use of my own samples/sounds, but I put it together on a very cheap audio mixing program. You can download free audio editors like Audacity that let you time-stretch, alter pitch, EQ and a variety of other things. I pre-edited tracks in that way and then put them together in the mixer. There's nothing technically complex about this method, it just involves a lot of patience and attention to detail. Any beatmatching and synching is done by carefully lining up the waveforms. You can play back each section as many times as you want and edit volume levels, panning etc. until it's all absolutely perfect.

So you can shell out for more sophisticated programs like ProTools, but whatever route you go for, I personally think this non-live methodology is the best for this ambient sets.

That non-live approach is precisely what I'm aiming for, mainly due to the fact that I've been unable to achieve my desired result with a live setup. That said, my intent is to create transitions that consist of incorporating specific elements of an upcoming track into the one playing out, and gradually adding more with plenty of looping/layering as the existing track fades out (if that makes any sense). The reason I'm focused on this approach is because, as has been acknowledged by all three of us, there's such a staggeringly diverse scope of structure and composition within these genres, and there's just no amount of EQ'ing possible with a standard setup that enables me to bring everything together in a way that doesn't just result in everything either sounding completely cluttered, or intro/outro jukeboxed. I know something like this is possible with Ableton, but I wanted to get some additional recommendations before making a decision.

If I could trouble you to be a bit more specific as to what you used, and what you used it for, that would be especially useful.

quote:

Originally posted by CalvP As you have CDJ's already, i would advise you to pick up NI Traktor & use a mixture of time coded CD's & midi controller/s. This will allow you to incorporate your existing setup & offer many many further advanced options, like digital sample decks, advanced FX, creating personal edits, mixing in key (from your tagged database) etc etc. Depending on your musical experience? i think it's also worth mentioning that something like NI Machine or Ableton Live, will enable you to improvise & add further instrumentation...something chillout lends itself very well to!

Yeah, my very first thought when contemplating an alternative to CDJ's was Ableton. I have no expectations of scoring myself any gigs playing this variety of music, and my intent from the very beginning was to just craft sets for home listening, so Ableton seemed the way to go. In terms of what I described to J regarding what I'm aiming for, do you think I'm better off with Ableton over Traktor?

If this isn't a job for Ableton I don't know what is.

quote:

Originally posted by Paradox Lost If I could trouble you to be a bit more specific as to what you used, and what you used it for, that would be especially useful.

Arrange tracks with this: http://www.acoustica.com/mp3-audio-mixer/
Pre-edit tracks with this: http://audacity.sourceforge.net/
Figure out tempos with this: http://www.mixmeister.com/bpmanalyzer/bpmanalyzer.asp

The latter is pretty good at working out the tempo of even predominantly beatless tracks, and is generally handy when you're mixing in a non-live workflow and aren't beatmatching by ear. The Acoustica program lets you chop up sound files with a simple drag and drop interface. Again, it's not going to give you an air-tight algorithmic precision, but I've used it to re-edit a lot of tracks I've gone on to use in my sets. I must stress that my methodology is a little like Burial making his tracks in Soundforge and hand-placing samples: compared to the tech guys using Ableton it's extremely primitive, but it does give you that hand-crafted effect with minor imperfections and less quantized tightness (depending on how obsessive you're willing to be).

I'm not talking you through my techniques play-by-play unless you tell me exactly what kind of ambient you're interested in mixing. It could be anything from drone to psy-chill to ambient dub, and they're all very different beasts with different requirements.

quote:

The basic problem with ambient is that it doesn't contain a standard four on the floor beat AND DJ friendly intro. The intro/outro is vital because it dictates a standard-starting with a soaring pad, big string section etc would make mixing smoothly very difficult, not to mention cause an extremely abrupt transition.

I'm guessing you aren't a very good DJ.

tbf it isn't all thaaaat hard. I just can't do it on the spot generally. But it can be done. It's all about figuring out if they will work harmonically which some people can do this by ear with natural talent unlike others. You can also definitely work to catch a better ear for it. Including ambient.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I'm not talking you through my techniques play-by-play unless you tell me exactly what kind of ambient you're interested in mixing. It could be anything from drone to psy-chill to ambient dub, and they're all very different beasts with different requirements.

I'm not really in need of a play-by-play tutorial, as I'm just looking for some general software direction. For what it's worth, though, a great percentage of the material I'm playing is Drone Ambient, which actually provides me the least amount of problems, as a bit of thoughtful EQ'ing can go a long way in that regard. But there are a number of other tracks that I would say are categorically 'chillout' that prove troublesome in terms traditionally linear mixing. Like this, for example: I'd prefer to isolate and loop just that underlying percussion section that begins around 14 seconds in order to create a more extended transition:



And perhaps the same thing with the percussion that kicks in around 45 seconds, or so:



It just seems that, when I try to mix this stuff normally, I'm forced to bring in more elements of a track more quickly than I'd prefer to, and it often just feels fragmented and mashed together. So I'd rather just incrementally bring in and loop specific elements (not just percussion lines) in order to slowly give a more cohesive shape to my transitions. I don't intend to accomplish all my transitions this way, as there is something to be said for the potency of occasionally slamming something in, but it's something I'd like to do more often than not.

Is what I'm after even at all possible (to the extent that I'm describing it, that is)? I don't mind hard, painstaking work, as I'm willing to invest all that's necessary in getting the job done.

quote:

Originally posted by CalvP I'm a terrible DJ - along with all those other terrible DJ's that mix using intro's & outro's. Not forgetting to add all the terrible producers who have the audacity to structure their tracks. Thankfully you're here to educate us all. I look forward to you uploading a live 3 minute mix seamlessly blending 2 string sections, 2 pads, 2 leads, 2 kicks, 2 basslines, 2 percussion lines, 2 vocals...

Why on Earth would I do that? I will, however, upload a mix as you described: an ambient blend, no four on the floor intro/outro and mixing into a big soaring string section. This is from a well-received mix I shared on TA a couple of years ago:

Tutorial by JackMoss

I've added some helpful comments to the description on Soundcloud. For the sake of being instructive, here's the first track (second isn't on Youtube):

Clashes harmonically? The first track is in Bmin, the second is in Emin. Perfectly acceptable harmonic transition. And I'm quite worried by what level of emotional apoplexy fits your billing of "soaring". It should also be perfectly obvious that I know that isn't what the OP is asking for, because neither of those tracks are ambient.

And I called you a bad DJ because you didn't say that. You said this:

quote:

The intro/outro is vital because it dictates a standard-starting with a soaring pad, big string section etc would make mixing smoothly very difficult, not to mention cause an extremely abrupt transition.

Not only is this a massive generalisation, it's quite obviously wrong. You didn't mention time signature at all there.

use filters...profit.

quote:

Originally posted by CalvP PM'ing you - there is absolutely no sense in continuing this publicly. This is a thread about mixing Ambient, not an e-dick DJ measuring contest.

Well, in the meantime, I would continue to be appreciative of any input either of you would have on my most recent post.

Not all the material I have and play is necessarily beatless, ambient music, and it runs the gamut among the (interchangeable?) parent genres I mentioned in the title to this thread; I don't think I'm quite able to narrow it down any further when speaking of them this broadly.

What you want to do is definitely possible, but you might want/need more sophisticated software and more honed skills to get really smooth results. Particularly if you want to isolate certain parts of a track - that's outside my domain.

So, basically what meriter said, then? It's Ableton that I should be looking into?

I'm still definitely going to experiment with the programs you linked me to in order to develop and hone those skills, but I ultimately want to become most familiar with whatever is most capable of producing the desired result.

quote:

Originally posted by CalvP ...the transition clashes harmonically...

Perhaps you two have already settled this but apart from minor harmonic dissonance, likely related to overtone delay/reverb-tail coloring in the beginning of the transition, there really isn't any clashing of the sort that detracts from the example. Once the string section comes in at its natural volume, it sits quite amicably in the bed of the first track.

i use Sony Acid 7. i use my ears to mix harmonically -- if you can't do this now, you'll pick it up fairly quickly. this is usually not the problem anyway when you are mixing drones or upping the energy into downtempo. there, it usually lies in a given section being either too long or too short, and editing helps only sometimes. track selection makes these sets, more than anything else.

treat these likes productions and large samples. if a mix sounds off because this one track has this annoying/impossible-to-mix section, then you either have to cut the track or choose another one entirely. the onus is on you, mixmaster-trackselectah.

basically do anything you like to come up with something you like.
don't go overboard on production techniques. 90% of the mixing work i do is just volume adjustment, and as you adjust to mix one into the other and into the 3rd or fourth track, the mix will suggest to you points of editing and adjustment, where arrangments can differ and what directions you can go.

more later, at work now.

edit: that's all. i used to mix in Nero's shitty 1-track editor which came free with nero 7. so ya. just go for it man.

oh yea, hardware. forget it, unless you are good with using mixing boards or wanna do live gigs eventually. then you are going to have to figure it out. i point and click and with high speed myself.

Ableton is a good choice to integrate hardware especially, and is much easier to beatmatch with. the reason i stick with Acid is because i know it so well that switching would be a waste of time. and the interface is nicer. it's a bit like picking a DAW that way, switching programs is difficult later on.

that said, check out

Audacity
Soundforge

neither is recommended if you wanna do live gigs. for live gigs, the minimum you'll need is an external soundcard and maybe a midicontroller if that's yur style. for the bedroom, this stuff is really extra. nice toys, but not necessary.

Hey
I would like to make a mix with tracks from very wide bpm range (start from 80 up to 130) is there any option to make it work?? Does Ableton give some tools making this possible?

quote:

Originally posted by drogtech Hey I would like to make a mix with tracks from very wide bpm range (start from 80 up to 130) is there any option to make it work?? Does Ableton give some tools making this possible?

you can use warp points creatively in ableton, but don't rely on the beatgrid to guide you through. you will tear your hair out (i tried before, tore my hair out, went back to Acid). being able to mix like that depends on track selection more than anything else.

also depends how slow fast you wanna do that kind of progression. over the course of an hour? over a few songs?

you gotta experiment, man.

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