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What if there were no DJ-friendly intros and outros?

Would chaos ensue? Would people stop dancing or going to clubs? Would DJs spontaneously combust?

I just finished a track for a release and I had the intro outro exactly how I wanted it from a musical standpoint. Then, the label asked me to add a 30-second DJ-friendly drum intro/outro and, being the obedient little whore that I am, did so without a fuss. On one hand, I feel like, meh - whatever, it's just a dance song, not something that I poured my heart and soul into. But, the rebellious side of me keeps thinking, is it really necessary to cater to DJs and perpetuate the cycle of formulaic drum intros and outros?

Now, granted, although I'm not heavily into the club/DJ scene, I come from a primarily live music background so I definitely understand the importance of minimizing dead space and keeping the dancefloor moving. I know that many/most of you are DJs and I'm obviously not, so I want to know your thoughts - is it really that hard to work songs into a set without composers having to tack on lameass drum intros?

Of course the drums only parts are usually boring if you listen to the track in isolation. But that isn't the point. You can't just think of the "drum intro" in isolation. As part of a dance track, it is made to be used by a DJ and listened to in the context of a mix, not on its own.

If the DJ actually knows what he is doing, there will be few or no "dead" spaces where drums are playing alone without any melodic material. Ideally, the spot where one track becomes "drums only" will be the same spot where the other track gets interesting (where it adds melodies or whatever). Having a bunch of "thud thud thud" dead space in between each track in a mix is a sign of a newbie DJ.

I have made a very illuminating diagram for you to consider:

yeah i've wondered about this myself, i dont think it's a huge deal to be honest. you could always release the original and an extended dj mix (omg moar sales!) . but truly if the track is good enough djs will find a way to mix it for example strobe by deadmau5 isn't exactly what one would call a DJ friendly intro. plus they could always just add an intro/outro themselves

honestly though at the end of the day i think it's possible to make a DJ friendly intro thats actually interesting and not the same standard boring kick/clap nonsense so perhaps we just need to be a little more creative

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Originally posted by turpentine yeah i've wondered about this myself, i dont think it's a huge deal to be honest. you could always release the original and an extended dj mix (omg moar sales!)

That's how I always imagined I'd do it if I ever get signed and have regular releases.

Every time I listen to a trance track that sounds like it's starting out "dj-friendly", I skip about a minute in. If people did that with my music they'd essentially miss the entire intro, which is still important to the song and can be done without 32 measures of minimal percussion.

Let the actual song be the way I want it to be, if DJs need something extra I'll tack on an intro/outro, that's no big deal, but refusing to release a track because DJs would have to do some extra work to use it in a set seems kind of silly.

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Originally posted by Vector A I have made a very illuminating diagram for you to consider:

Nice! Yeah, I get that (even though most DJ sets that I've seen don't work out that perfectly and have far too much drums-only space), but I guess my question really centers more on, so what if the DJs don't have a bunch of drums to beatmatch to? What are the consequences, even if it's a few seconds of dead space? Hell, in many ways a few seconds of silence can be very effective at creating a bigger impact when the next song comes in (if done correctly, of course). Secondarily, I guess maybe I'm also asking if you guys think that the monotony of perfectly beatmatched sets are contributing to the monotony and formulaic nature of EDM? Maybe, as composers/producers, leaving these DJ-friendly ins/outs out of our songs will improve the quality of the music itself, break the monotony, and maybe even force the worst DJs to up their game or find new and more interesting ways to work songs into their sets. ???

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Originally posted by Kysora ...but refusing to release a track because DJs would have to do some extra work to use it in a set seems kind of silly.

I agree, but just to clarify, there was never an indication that the track wouldn't be released in my case. Like I said, I willingly obliged with their request, knowing that it's the nature of the game and I think I did a decent job of keeping the intro/outro somewhat interesting (i.e., without the typical 8 bars kick/8 bars kick/hihat/etc.). Still, I definitely preferred the track without the drums because they sorta softened the impact of the way my original version started and (esp.) ended.

when i was djing my brothers wedding, i just made my own intros for tracks that didn't have dj friendly intros. Maybe weeed out the hacks.

dance music DJs would just have to be creative like our hip hop counter parts.

Re: What if there were no DJ-friendly intros and outros?

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Originally posted by cryophonik Would chaos ensue? Would people stop dancing or going to clubs? Would DJs spontaneously combust? is it really that hard to work songs into a set without composers having to tack on lameass drum intros?

EDM DJs should be more creative - doing same transitions from intros / outros is boring both to DJ and listener.

If you take a genre which is much more dynamic, which doesnt offer intros / outrous you suddenly, as a DJ, learn some new tricks. Quite often I visit a club where DJ plays such dynamic genres, songs that constantly change, where are no 1:00-1:30 intros / outros, he makes the transition about every hmm 3 minutes and he is very good at it (he uses serato, he can scratching very well, he goes to some pretty damn known dj competitions and quite often he wins).

He plays virtually everything that is nice: funk, house, some old stuff (from 70s, 80s, some old hip hop), disco, d n b etc.

for example this has a typical pop construction, no long intros / outros (just some 10-15 seconds beginning), it's from 1978 - it's funny to see some 18-20 year old people who have tons of fun listening to the DJ who plays track that has 33 years old
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amN8UynV5pA

he uses scratching, FXs - what I mean is - he is really good at it, DJing is his life, he has passion for it, he can create tension from almost everything, he can create some loop on the fly (or just have "recorded" cuepoints, loops etc.) so he doesnt need silly intros / outros.

I like such 'dynamic DJing' - it's like he takes the best from all songs. I would say that he is just a "real", good, prepared DJ, not some DJ wannabe (there are tons of such "djs") who cant even prepare for his show, who cant create some loop points for most tracks in his playlist etc.

Yea, i'm also a dj but it's just my hobby, i have another job, i'm not as skilled but thankfully i can spot a good DJing I mean - isnt it enough ? DJ friendly intros / outros, DJ friendly BPM, DJ friendly root key. Seriously, it should be about music, about people having fun, not about DJ having an easy job...

there's plenty of tracks with no intros or maybe just 5 seconds. Try mixing some drum and bass . I did it on some local Dutch FM radio a few weeks ago with an hour of practice. It ain't easy, but it's doable. Just press play as soon as the other one ends haha.

You should've said "okay then. here's a club edit with drums. release both version, k thnx!" and then named it "DJ Friendly Noob Mix" or something.

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Originally posted by Storyteller there's plenty of tracks with no intros or maybe just 5 seconds. Try mixing some drum and bass . I did it on some local Dutch FM radio a few weeks ago with an hour of practice. It ain't easy, but it's doable. Just press play as soon as the other one ends haha.

When you say "drum and bass", are you saying that you threw in DnB (i.e., as in the DnB genre, higher tempo, etc.), or are you referring more generally to just drums and bass (i.e., same genre, tempo, etc. as the song itself)? I pretty much did the latter, but I like the idea of the former and it would force me to try something completely different. Hmmm....

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Originally posted by dj_alfi ... "DJ Friendly Noob Mix" or something.

I was talking about the DnB genre. Some of those tracks have virtually no outro. Maybe 3-5 secs instead of the minute you have with regular house tracks.

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Originally posted by Storyteller I was talking about the DnB genre. Some of those tracks have virtually no outro. Maybe 3-5 secs instead of the minute you have with regular house tracks.

Cool, thanks for the clarification. I may have to try that next time! If you have any examples of this, I'd love to check it out.

I remember reading a James Holden interview where he said he specifically made tracks with obscure intros/outros because he didn't want shit DJs playing his music.

I'd like to see less conformist outros and intros for sure.

Top chefs are always wanting to push new boundaries and do things differently, so it's slightly claustrophobic that the edm scene seems to generally insist on such conformity.

PS - another big conformist gripe of mine (this could upset some of ya) - the trance ROLLING BASS - fuk, please can someone be a bit more original and ditch those sonic lawnmower rolling bass's.

I'd send them a 2-step remix with a broken sounding beat in 6.5/3

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Originally posted by meriter I'd send them a 2-step remix with a broken sounding beat in 6.5/3

That's what the original version is.

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Originally posted by cryophonik Cool, thanks for the clarification. I may have to try that next time! If you have any examples of this, I'd love to check it out.

Just check my soundcloud (in sig). The first thing is the DnB mix. It has about 5 transitions where I just pressed play as soon as the other one ended. And I fucked up about an equal amount of mixing moments haha.

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Originally posted by BshidoHEAT dance music DJs would just have to be creative like our hip hop counter parts.

That used to be true, but not anymore. That's why hip hop DJ's always bought doubles.

But in EDM, back in the early 90's, a lot of techno/rave songs didn't have intros or outros and they were short. Songs where around 3-4 minutes each, 5 at the max. It wasn't until around the mid 90's when they started getting extremely "dj friendly."

Personally, I edit most of my mainstream house tracks. I don't like long intros or filler shit, so I cut them down to the bones. I edit them so they have a 16-32 bar intro/outro, and they get straight to the point.

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Originally posted by Richard Butler PS - another big conformist gripe of mine (this could upset some of ya) - the trance ROLLING BASS - fuk, please can someone be a bit more original and ditch those sonic lawnmower rolling bass's.

eh, come on, there's a lot you can do with a rolling bassline as far as the timbre is concerned. this is like complaining about power chords in rock music. sometimes you just need something that works, and sounds good, there's no need to overthink every element. sometimes the bass isn't the primary focus and having an unusual rhythmic pattern just draws attention away from the main elements of the song.

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Originally posted by Vector A I have made a very illuminating diagram for you to consider:

This made me laugh.

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Originally posted by BshidoHEAT dance music DJs would just have to be creative like our hip hop counter parts.

This really.


Even as a DJ first myself, I'm sickened at how lazy some DJs are. I remember hearing a certain fairly respected house DJ saying "the chances are, if it doesn't have an intro exactly 32 bars long, I won't play it".


Personally I quite like tracks with more creative intros and outros. If nothing else they make much better set starters/enders. But it depends on the genre - things like deep house & prog do work a lot better with long mixes in a set (although not necessarily every mix), which generally need long, building intros & outros, but they don't have to be drums only.

I think certainly with the current state of play there are enough people making DJ-friendly versions of their tracks that if as a producer you don't want to, you don't have to.

I guess my advice would be rather than thinking "ooh I'll give it a really original structure", think about the context in which it's likely to be listened. If it's very much a club track, imagine it being played by a DJ and decide if it would sound too sudden (which can often translate to 'cheesy' in a lot of people's minds) if it came in after just a couple of bars, or even just being dropped straight in.

The intro's your chance to capture the feel of your track without giving too much away and if you make it unique and recognisable you can create a lot of anticipation as it's brought in.

One obvious example (from way back when) is Freefall - Skydive... classic track with a really original and recognisable intro, but still long and easy to mix. The heads recognise it coming in, then have the suspense right up until it drops into the first breakdown.

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Originally posted by Stu Cox Even as a DJ first myself, I'm sickened at how lazy some DJs are. I remember hearing a certain fairly respected house DJ saying "the chances are, if it doesn't have an intro exactly 32 bars long, I won't play it".

32 BARS? Really? My melodies and crap come in around 16 bars, even for my hardcore tracks, and there are a couple of DJs who say my intros fine.

Then again, I can't DJ. At all.

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