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-- Ableton vs Cubase vs Logic (in 2011)
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Ableton vs Cubase vs Logic (in 2011)

Peeps, need some advise. I like Ableton but it's been acting up lately and crashing randomly. I am thinking of possibly jumping ship back to Cubase but ain't been there since v1.6. Logic is attractive but I'm hearing it has it's share of issues.

ableton midi editing pisses me off and working with a trackball zoom is holly fucking shit level of frustrating... Drawing automation sucks ass too...

I'm running MBP i7 2.4Ghz, btw

Thoughts?

Reaper!
www.reaper.fm

Logic pro 9 on my imac is rock fucking solid and frankly a joy to use.

Cubase does all the same things but I love the interface of logic and it all makes sense to me.

The only gripe I have is the slight lack of pre-defined key commands (like you find standardised in cubase) but they leave iot up to you to define your own and if you look on the web, you'll find tons already made for logic from the PTHD commands to the cubase ones etc.

It's not a long term problem but for someone just trying to get in to it (and from the sounds of it you would be) it can just take a little bit of setting up.

One thing I really love about logic is that, aside from PT, it is increibly close to routing in a real studio environment - it all makes such logical sense.

I love Cubase, and I despise Live (for it's shit MIDI and unintuitive mixing layout, to me it's a sketchpad).

I think Logic is slightly ahead of Cubase in most areas, most notably the included plugins (if that matters), the way it all hooks up and it's less cluttered workflow. If I had a Mac it's the only DAW i'd consider learning properly alongside Cubase.

I run a pirated version of 8.2.1 on XP SP3 and it might crash once every 3 months. You're doing something wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux pirated version

quote:

You're doing something wrong.

Now that that's fixed.....

Logic is an amazing DAW. You can buy it and not really need anything else, except for maybe a synth with ethereal synthesis. It works great, can be used for any genre very easily, and has a great userbase.

Live to me seems like a great idea on paper, but I've heard so much bad stuff about it in terms of DAW usage. Plus, its more expensive than Logic, in terms of how much you get....both typically cost $499 from most dealers, but that's Logic Studio, with multiple programs that help you go from start to finish with producton, a ton of synths and effects (and lets not forget the stuff for guitars), while in the case of Live, you get the DAW, some loops, a drum program.....and not much else. If you want Suite, its another $300, and that doesn't include . Plus, I heard editing things in Live is a gigantic pain in the ass, especially for MIDI. The only good thing for Live does better out of the box is for live performance.

I'd say go to Logic if you're going to change DAWs, but just remember this: there is no perfect DAW. They all have problems, they all have issues, and your best bet to truly find the best DAW for yourself is to do your homework, research the various DAWs, look at pro and amateur reviews, and make threads like this on various forums.

I couldn't imagine trying to produce in ableton.. people actually do that?

quote:

Originally posted by meriter I couldn't imagine trying to produce in ableton.. people actually do that?

What's wrong with Ableton?

oi don't get why people use anything but ableton for EDM. It is really vertical music. Automation in logic is rather poor in comparison and that also goes for mid. And yes I know how to use the environment. I use logic because the music I make is more thru composed so it makes sense to use a DAW that is more linear.

I find Logic rather mediocre. It isn't really spectacular at anything. Reaper would really just have to add a few things and be so much better. Logic just hasn't improved in years. It works but it is hardly innovative.

I doubt making the switch to lion and I have a feeling logic X will be absolute garbage. IN that case, back to pc and cubase.

It depends how you like to work. I prefer the linear way of working. Not a fan of the jamming with clips. The clips in ableton will help if you would be struggling to make the arrangement. I feel logic is the better deal with the best plugins available for the price. I also prefer the routing and environment possibilities with logic.

As for Logic X? I don't trust that at all. I don't like the way operating systems are becoming more like iPads/iPhones

knowing logic and live quite well... I second L4C's opinion here. Logic is rather poor because they never have taken the time to re-design those arpeggio, chord and other elements living in the ruins of the environment. In fact the whole environment should be easier to use now, and it's the perfect opposite. So you're constantly fighting against the limitations of logic, but in a way it also serves you as you dig deeper.

What's missing in logic anno 2011: destructive audio-editing with plugins (an old request from 2002 but I gave up), better environment tools, better keyboard "gestures": arp, chord, pitch, velocity other than the environment blocks. And now also lacking the pitch on audio tracks alongside with the flex time engine.

I use Logic though, been using it since 1998 and after a pause in 2007 I got back to it a year later.

I went for ableton live in 2005 which I still use for quick productions, remixes and shows of all kinds, but felt terrible with its limitations when trying to make music with people who rely on sheet music. Plus the midi editing functions AND the nonsense of anti-ergonomics when it comes to step recording make it poor for midi after all.

Their built-in eq and compressor sound like crap too, let's face it. Also missing in ableton is a spot on audio edition like the one in logic with basic functions such as fade in and out, gain. Ok all of that is there, but it's realtime and taxes cpu for nothing. Plus I like low level editing of files. The ones doing timestretch bit by bit back in the good old years know why :-)

Meanwhile there's one sequencer that might soon overwhelm all the others if they keep making it better at that tempo, that's NI's Maschine. Believe it or not, but fact is that they're pushing it forward by implementing everything I'd expect from logic or live for beat and electronic. What it's missing is ableton like timestrech but oh well... Anyway, it's too early, but it looks like we're having a strong combo by using maschine inside logic, which is what I do today.

L4C might be right, if logic X is garbage, it's time for a change, and the only sequencer that boasts all those features, although I don't like it, is cubase. Who knows, after all...

quote:

Originally posted by djshire Now that that's fixed.....

I'm not really sure what your point is here, pirated versions are usually more prone to bugs and crashes.

I've only ever used Cubase 5 and a French chap on Anjuna forum claimed you cannot get a nice sounding kick out of cubase (meaning any sample comes out sounding bad) once rinsed through cubase.

I often find the sound is crunchy and sort of dry and nasty but that could well be my mixing abilty!

Also I imagine the designers never produce, otherwise they would recognise the things we need such as simple mass import of drum samples straight into the drum machine, and then to be able to scroll through each sample as the project plays. There is a way to do this I guess but it's so difficult to work out.

Too much focus on gimmicks for my licking such as the profoundly useless beat designer.

Reverence the built in convolution verb is a love of mine though.

I personally love the workflow and cant imagine anything easier.

LIVE always worried me as I felt it might be inclined to turn out loopy sounding tracks. Seen some great producers swear by it though.

LOGIC beleive it or not I have never seen in my life! I like least clutter in my life and never double up on things and always throw stuff away unless it has a proper place in my life - I hate Christmas crackers for this very reason.

quote:

Originally posted by Lolo knowing logic and live quite well... I second L4C's opinion here. Logic is rather poor because they never have taken the time to re-design those arpeggio, chord and other elements living in the ruins of the environment. In fact the whole environment should be easier to use now, and it's the perfect opposite. So you're constantly fighting against the limitations of logic, but in a way it also serves you as you dig deeper. What's missing in logic anno 2011: destructive audio-editing with plugins (an old request from 2002 but I gave up), better environment tools, better keyboard "gestures": arp, chord, pitch, velocity other than the environment blocks. And now also lacking the pitch on audio tracks alongside with the flex time engine. I use Logic though, been using it since 1998 and after a pause in 2007 I got back to it a year later. I went for ableton live in 2005 which I still use for quick productions, remixes and shows of all kinds, but felt terrible with its limitations when trying to make music with people who rely on sheet music. Plus the midi editing functions AND the nonsense of anti-ergonomics when it comes to step recording make it poor for midi after all. Their built-in eq and compressor sound like crap too, let's face it. Also missing in ableton is a spot on audio edition like the one in logic with basic functions such as fade in and out, gain. Ok all of that is there, but it's realtime and taxes cpu for nothing. Plus I like low level editing of files. The ones doing timestretch bit by bit back in the good old years know why :-) Meanwhile there's one sequencer that might soon overwhelm all the others if they keep making it better at that tempo, that's NI's Maschine. Believe it or not, but fact is that they're pushing it forward by implementing everything I'd expect from logic or live for beat and electronic. What it's missing is ableton like timestrech but oh well... Anyway, it's too early, but it looks like we're having a strong combo by using maschine inside logic, which is what I do today. L4C might be right, if logic X is garbage, it's time for a change, and the only sequencer that boasts all those features, although I don't like it, is cubase. Who knows, after all...

I hear you about the environment, but I think rather than trying to improve it, they should dump it all together - it is just a relic from a time when it was actually needed and there's so many other and better ways they could implement the same things now (like midi plugins in the signal chain in the mixer etc).

I think there's always a "grass is greener" feeling but I have an engineers brain, and put simply logic is the most logical to me. Sure EXS and ultrabeat haven't quite gelled with me, but they're plugs not he platform itself and given that the included logic plugs are simply outstanding, I can't really complain.

I think those slating logic for midi aren't doing it right - logic by far has the best midi and audio implementation of all the major daws I've tried. I would also say it's probably the most stable. The only crashes I've had have been from buggy 3rd party plugins, which have all been fixed asap by the manufacturer (maybe with the exception of NI).

I've tried Live a good few times and the advantages were so badly outweighed by the negatives and limitations it could never be anything more than a sketchpad for ideas for me.

The only thing I may end up switching to is native Pro Toools - it would save me a fair bit of hassle having to jump between the two but I also have a love/hate relationship with PTHD (ilok, routing, interface etc), so not quite sure I want to take the full leap.

Thanks for chiming in, lads. I must say, I found subsequent editions of Cubase (versions after 1.6) cludgy and quite complex, unnecessarily so.

My good friend ran Sonar for a long time and swore by it. One thing I did see, watching him work, was how easy it was to get something going in midi. However, the way it handled vsti was taxing on performance. Also lack of Mac support makes it a nonstarter for me. I'm almost at a point where I either jump ship to logic or eat my crow and crawl back to win XP/Cubase 1.6 - without all the fancy new stuff.

Tyas, Armin, van Doorn, Prydz swear by logic... I'd hate to waste $500 if it don't work out... And I'm not installing virus riddled crack on my Mac. Dilemma...

Any reason you're not considering PT9 or PreSonus Studio One? Both are legitimate contenders, and Studio One V2 is about to be released any day now with a ton of new features. As a former Cubase user, I'd take either one over Cubase, but primarily because I just never liked its workflow, terminology, etc. I'm not a Mac owner and I've never used Logic, but based on the various vids I've seen, it looks nice.

quote:

Originally posted by aNYthing TAnd I'm not installing virus riddled crack on my Mac. Dilemma...

rest assured your crack will not have a virus unless you are running a pc. Virus' on macs are a myth.

quote:

Originally posted by Kysora I'm not really sure what your point is here, pirated versions are usually more prone to bugs and crashes.

You shouldn't use pirated anything.

quote:

Originally posted by djshire You shouldn't use pirated anything.

I agree but these arguments never go anywhere. Each position only has conjecture to back it up with moral appeals on both sides that never really amount to much in light of the fact they can't be supported with logically relevant evidence. There is no Profit & Loss accounting for pirated software, on the anti-pirating side, and no evidence, for pro-piracy, which proves the predicted revenue stream; when those who are "auditing" the software - as one would a college course - can be counted on to purchase it.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Any reason you're not considering PT9 or PreSonus Studio One? Both are legitimate contenders, and Studio One V2 is about to be released any day now with a ton of new features. As a former Cubase user, I'd take either one over Cubase, but primarily because I just never liked its workflow, terminology, etc. I'm not a Mac owner and I've never used Logic, but based on the various vids I've seen, it looks nice.

AFAIK, PT does not support VSTi well - only having recently added that functionality. Also, I heard ever since M-Audio (and subsequently whoever bought them out) took over, it got crappier.

I guess there isn't a perfect tool for anyone. Maybe the answer lies in running multiple apps - one for specific purpose.

Ableton - playing around with ideas
Logic - for midi editing/advanced functions
Soundforge - sound editing

Hm.. now there's a thought

quote:

Originally posted by aNYthing AFAIK, PT does not support VSTi well - only having recently added that functionality. Also, I heard ever since M-Audio (and subsequently whoever bought them out) took over, it got crappier.

No, PT does not natively support VST; however, most plugins these days are available in its native format (RTAS), or there's always the FXpansion VST>RTAS wrapper for an additional cost. As a long-time PT user, I have to disagree with your second statement - it's much improved, particularly in the MIDI department. But, it's still not perfect and it looks like you've ruled it out already anyway.

hey RANN

i've alway thought the automation features in Logic and I suppose along with it the midi quite limited. I wish there were better tools for curves, different types of waves and what not like in cubase. It is really rudimentary. I also wish there was like a midi generator similar to like audio but just digital information which you can imagine would be quite handy.

So here is why and where FL Studio comes in.

Seems to be both logic and ableton have been slated for being shit or mediocre at best.

Long live the FL King.

Cubase can eat a dick as far as I am concerned.

quote:

Originally posted by Lunar Phase 7 So here is why and where FL Studio comes in. Seems to be both logic and ableton have been slated for being shit or mediocre at best. Long live the FL King. Cubase can eat a dick as far as I am concerned.

Why hate cubase? Expln.

quote:

Originally posted by aNYthing Thanks for chiming in, lads. I must say, I found subsequent editions of Cubase (versions after 1.6) cludgy and quite complex, unnecessarily so. My good friend ran Sonar for a long time and swore by it. One thing I did see, watching him work, was how easy it was to get something going in midi. However, the way it handled vsti was taxing on performance. Also lack of Mac support makes it a nonstarter for me. I'm almost at a point where I either jump ship to logic or eat my crow and crawl back to win XP/Cubase 1.6 - without all the fancy new stuff. Tyas, Armin, van Doorn, Prydz swear by logic... I'd hate to waste $500 if it don't work out... And I'm not installing virus riddled crack on my Mac. Dilemma...

why don't you try out the express version?? if you like logic you can then upgrade to the full version.

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