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Some more advice..

Okay, I know my constant request for advice is, well, constant, but I'm working on sound design. I want to create something that is rich, vibrant, and something that if you listen to it, say, that's a great synth.

So, I've been working on a new track. I don't have a name for it, but I got the melody down, maybe some suitable percussion, and a fairly generic bass ( one analog oscilator ) that sounds pretty strong imo.

Anyways, I created in instance of Thor and within that Thor, 3 wavetable oscilators slightly detuned, using mixed waves for its sound form.

I got them bouncing off one another the way I want to but its lacking that fullness, richness, and vibrancy that I'm seeking.

As previously mentioned I'm a Reason user and I'm a bit overwhelmed with the fact that unless I'm using someone else's patch, or combinator, the only richness I obtain sound very screechy, and like it comes out of the Scream Distortion Unit (and that's not what I want)



so here's a picture of the synth patch I created. I have two instances of the same patch, slightly but differently tuned in each synth.

Now, here's what it sounds like:

12 by DJRYAN�

so what else can I do in order to enhance this sound besides adding reverb and eqing?

Boosting the sides a bit with a mid/side effect. This way it sounds wider. Add another layer in the bass segment so it goes deeper and will realy pack some energy. Also, just start adding those effects .

we call that a stereo imager which allows a sound to go form mono to stereo or stereo to mono, or vise versa at a variety of different frequencies. Yea, it could use some of that, but, so you know what I'm after so maybe your guidance could be a bit more specific.

I want something like this:



@ the 1:00 Mark..

How do I do that??????

That's a lot of layers that's why it sounds lush.

You've got the bass, some saw-string type pads, probably even a piano and they are playing chords.

It's easier to start doing that sort of thing by using piano first to get the (somewhat housey) chords you want, and then replacing with thicker pads and leads.

Also try doubling the melody an octave higher or intervals of 5 or 7 notes, removing bum notes.

Yes it is a lot layers. But more so, when I look at a true patch in Reason. (pictured below) I'm lost has to how they're interacting together to create the sound. First off the cabeling alone is enough to stifle any progress yet, I'm highly interested in learning how it all fits together. More importantly, how I can be the one to create these sort of patches.

What literature, or what manuals train someone like me the ins and outs of true synthesis?

I mean look at this:






that's crazy!! and the end result is this:

Melody by DJRYAN�

Anyone can take a melody and apply a someone's patch and get it to sound like it does. I guess I'm just interested in finding out more. Most of the information I come across is mostly directed towards beginners or just a little bit more, but I can't seem to locate anything more advanced.

Anyways, I facebook'd East & Young asking them for some guidance. Hopefully they respond.

15 eqs for 3 synths

Assuming a few are on the master, and fx sends, thats still alot

i could probably replicate that in one synth but it would require feeding through a chain of fx...chorus/flange (slight detuning) delay (widening) /reverb/compression (compress the fux out of it)+EQ

mmm cheez.

quote:

Originally posted by DJRYAN� I facebook'd East & Young asking them for some guidance. Hopefully they respond.

Surely you can flip it over and work out how its all put together?

I don't have their patch. The example above was from some refill. The East & Young synth is an entirely different sound.

And yea, 15 eq's for the sounds within the sounds. The things we call artifacts, enhanced, refined, and made into what's used. Now just to know how to perfect that, is entirely different story.

I'd advise you to spend a few years twiddling knobs and experimenting, for me thats how you learn, no book would get anywhere close really - I read Mr snows Dance music manual but it's very basic.

That preset is very plastic sugar sounding and is what I try to avoid. I find Gladiator makes a lot of those sugary sounds too.


For all sounds, reverb is key and I dont mean obvious typical hall reverb. Firstly room reverb - back in the day the reason synths / instruments often had a great character (from people like Stevie Wonder and M Jackson) was because they piped the synth sound back into a real space and then recorded it. Somehow this gives you a vibrancy and it's a major trick a lot of people (inc me often) miss. Paying attention to this can give you a more organic 'alive' feel when done right.

You can re - record your synth thru a mic or you can try and use room reverbs to create this short verbed prescence.

Now you don't always have to have this room reverb, sometimes just a main longer verb will suffice but you really have to make your all verb choices very very carefuly, I cant stress this enogh. I find when you get this just right, the difference is significant but it means a lot of experimentation. Each sound will suit different verb settings, differnt density, different room msize, pre - deyal and so on. I find dedicated verbs are better for a more refined sound than built in synth verbs.

Often pan the main longer verb or delay and consider strapping some modulation accross the verb such as phaser as this gives movement energy.

SOUND DESIGN - when you build a patch try and find those little unusual touches such as a little pitch envelope, a little fm mangling and so on - always think outside the box.

LAYERING - I'd say the most important thing I've learned is to make the right sound choices and in my case this takes time, it just does. I might find a layer that is good - but is there an even better one - keep making a list of possible sounds for that next layer and then whittle it down to the very best one. The reason a real orchestra can sound so refined is that each instrument is doing the parts that are perfect for it.
Some argue you cannot learn to make great sound choices, it's just innate in some people, but all you can do is keep practicing and hope you refine this skill.



DYNAMICS - the way 'the sound' (which might be 2+ layers) decays is critical. You might need 2 or 3 different compressors / dynamics tools (such as a maximiser) to pin down the way the amplitude of the sound decays over it's legnth.

A typical dynamics chain for me might be = SOUND > BBE SONIC MAXIMISER > FLUX ATTACK SHAPER (transient designer - something to bring out the initial attack) > DAW SIDECHAINED COMPRESSOR.
This is just dynamics. There could be other processing.


WARMTH - Rich Jones (a respected techno producer here) said to me it's all about warmth, from the kick down. Something I'm only just starting to work on properly. Get your sounds warm and rounded (maybe not every sound like a hihat though).


My sound choices were bad for a long long time, but I think I'm getting better. I just never realised how much care was needed in this matter so I often ended up with a mushy shitty sound once the track was finished.

UNDERSTAND THIS - know that you may make 19 shitty leads and 1 really good one - just accept this reality and you wont beat yourself up so much. Each fail is a step closer to a good sound.

I've read this now 3-4 times. Mostly because I want to make sure I understand this. But I have a question. You said something about "dedicated reverb" versus, built in "synth reverb". What's the difference and what were you talking about exactly?

Secondly, the part about piping back in the synth. It would probably be best to have some sort of room treatment in order to get this perfected- right?

If that room treatment isn't available, you'd concentrate on just using reverb.

I usually use reverb as a conditioner to the overall sound. To give it that extra fullness that. It sounds like your implying that it can do a bit more. I'll start initializing my reverb patches and getting some of that down.

Sound Dynamics sounded the most appealing. I kinda gathered that what you were talking about, and this might sound basic, but is to pick out a piece of the synth. I'll call it an artifact. An unintened sound that lies deep within the patch. THen with the eqing, reverb, fx, etc. The goal would be to extract that sound, refining it and making it the primary focal point of the track- right?

So, combining synths, and adding fx, would either create a decent sound, or have different pieces that could be pulled from, in order to make a song?

I have so many questions its unbelievable.

But thank you for taking the time to give me a littl more insight. If there's anything else you think I should know, I'm interested in listening.

quote:

Originally posted by DJRYAN� If there's anything else you think I should know, I'm interested in listening.

Careful what you wish for DJRYAN�!!

quote:

Originally posted by DJRYAN� I've read this now 3-4 times. Mostly because I want to make sure I understand this. But I have a question. You said something about "dedicated reverb" versus, built in "synth reverb". What's the difference and what were you talking about exactly?

In a VSTi like Sylenth 1 or Massive, you have built in effects like reverb which are usually lower quality compared to a VST effect like Lexicon or Altiverb.

I don't think you have "built in" effects in reason.

I think he's on about inserting reverbs on the channels (or in reason chained in after synth) so the whole signal goes through the reverb, which can then be controlled by dry/wet knob, then to mixer, as apposed to using just the sends/aux.

Or maybe not? He's hard to understand at the best of times. I think beatflux sums it up.

quote:

Originally posted by DJRYAN� I've read this now 3-4 times. 1) You said something about "dedicated reverb" versus, built in "synth reverb". What's the difference 2) Secondly, the part about piping back in the synth. It would probably be best to have some sort of room treatment in order to get this perfected- right? 3) Sound Dynamics sounded the most appealing. I kinda gathered that what you were talking about, and this might sound basic, but is to pick out a piece of the synth. I'll call it an artifact. An unintened sound that lies deep within the patch. THen with the eqing, reverb, fx, etc. The goal would be to extract that sound, refining it and making it the primary focal point of the track- right? So, combining synths, and adding fx, would either create a decent sound, or have different pieces that could be pulled from, in order to make a song?

Sorry for the lack of clarity, I'm always trying to do 3 things at once so the clarity takes a hit.

1) Reverb. I tend to find a stand alone reverb product will yield better results than one that comes built into a synth.

For example Altverb.

Sending your synth sound to a nice reverb like this can give you a better reverb sound. Sure the clubbers wont say 'ohh thats a nice reverb' just as you might not know why a restaurant meal tastes good, but none the less you still know it does taste special.

If you want quite good but cheap standalone reverb try Toraverb.

http://d16.pl/toraverb


HERE IS THIS REVERB WITH A ROOMY SETTING;

Clavinet in a room by d16group


2)This 'piping back in' technique can be done in 2 ways;

a) You can 'really' do it physically by recording your synth lead thru a microphone set near your monitors (assuming your version of Reason allows audio recording that is??).

What this will add is some 'real world' prescnce to the sound.
The sound you end up with will depend on the rooms accoustics. Treatment is not important, loads of great engineers have been know to record drums in a toilet or hallway for example.
Don't get all hung up on this - just try it if you have a mic. See what you get.


b) OR MUCH EASIER WAY - You can fake it by adding a digital reverb to mimick the sound of a real (smallish) room. REMEMBER, THIS IS NOT THE MAIN LONGER REVERB YOU MIGHT WANT TO ALSO ADD.
This is just a touch of room precense.

To get a sense of this - go clap your hands in a tiled bathroom - hear that short slap back reverb (delay)? Thats what your after - just a touch of live room.

You may not want to always do this. Sometimes it works well though.
I would often use a little room reverb on say a snare and almost always on the higher kick part as I find a roomy quality on the kick is appealing and gives more energy and prescence but use a gate after the verb so as the tail is nice and tight.

KEEP TWIDDLING THE REVERB UNTIL YOU THINK IT'S SOUNDS GOOD. Don't get too hung up on what each dial does.



3) About making a cool sound - really what I'm saying is sure do all the basic people always tend to suggest such as detuning one oscillator against another, but to get that special sound try and think off the wall a bit.
Tweak the things you might normally leave alone.

Many great sounds are the results of mistakes and tweakery - again don't fret and get all hung up on technical stuff.

Distortion is another FX type that with plenty of experimentation can make a nice addition to a sound - but you can easily kill a sound with too much or the wrong type - again just play around.


Hope this is clearer.

Last point - some big producers only use presets, or mainly presets with a little self tweaking.

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