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Groove in more concrete terms

People don't really seem to get what the term groove implies. To most, they associate it with something that is funky or swings which is just a type of groove but nothing to do with the term. Rock tunes can groove. ACDC has some really great grooves. Swing has 0 to do with groove. It is a subset, not a precursor.


The easiest way to think of it is rhythmic tension.

A good way to sort of conceptualize the concept is via music tones and the spectrum of dissonances and consonances.

Something that grooves is something that adds tension to the rhythm ie pull. It would be like say one pitch compared to a chord in a tonal context. One does nothing, the other has a certain pull as a result of hundreds of years of western musical heritage.

so say you have something every 8th note perfectly on the beat. This is sort of like playing octaves. It sounds nice but boring. Say add 16th notes that are perfect, this is like adding a 5th or a 3rd. It adds some tension but still quite tame.

Now if you were say to add a beat that is really close , too close to be a 16th note, or even a swung sixtenth and adjusting it so it becomes a 32th. there are values that sound good., that groove., but if you take it too far, it might be like playing a cluster chord which has its uses but is quite dissonant and hard to take.

Also, tension cannot occur if you swing "everything" . This is not groove. It grooves no more than a straight 16th note pattern. The tension is a result of all the elements and how they play against each other and the resulting tension as a result of all the elements. Now just like notes and chords, too much tension can be a mess, but just the right amount similar to say a suspended 2nd that gets resolved the next chord, can add colour and well in this case groove.

And there is a significant amount of ear training required to perceive it and know what is happening. Similar to chords. So just like you could play any chord in any inversion and I could tell you all the pitches , something you learn by training, this is similar to groove. If you don't analyze drum grooves , you won't ever get it.

Some people have a more innate sense of rhythm from just being exposed to music but it seems like the newer generation especially people that have been listening to too much EDM cannot discern this parameter in music. They associate it with swing.

so just a few things

swing is not groove.
groove is rhythmic tension
Rhythm, like chords and harmony takes practice and ear training to do well.
Using a groove template on all the elements reduces the tension so it might be doing less than you think.

Anyways, a few thoughts.

Interesting, thanks. Any tips for writing percs that "groove"? My approach is to usually just arbitrarily assign different amounts of swing to a few different parts and hope it sounds good. Surely there's a better way.

that answer is the same as , how do I write harmonic progressions. Study grooves you like. That is it.

Fair enough, thanks.

If you could give an example of how different elements should interact, that would help me out to understand what you are trying to say.

One example that I can think of, that might be what you are talking about, is when you are trying to beatmatch two records. When you get them ultra close in BPM they will slowly drift. As they drift apart it doesn't sound good, but as the records get closer up to syncing it sounds better.

i could but it would take more time than I have. I mean this is dissertation level stuff that would require about 100 pages to explain.

the main points are what you should take home.

groove is rhythmic tension. Groove isn't some entity that is on or off. There are different types, just like there are different types of harmonic colours.

Swing is not groove.
ENough information to start researching the topic on your own or experimenting.

I made it simpler than it really is. The analogy isn't perfect but it does somewhat relate.

Re: Groove in more concrete terms

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney Using a groove template on all the elements reduces the tension so it might be doing less than you think.

Exactly. As a percussionist or, in my case, a bassist, you learn to play "against" the tempo to add groove. Typically, it's done by selectively playing slightly behind the beat (aka "pulling" the beat). Or, you can add drive by selectively playing slightly ahead of the beat (aka "pushing" the beat). These methods are only effective if the rest of the instruments are playing on the beat. If everybody is off by the same amount, there is no contrast and, therefore, no tension.

This is one of the intangibles that separates the men from the boys. Two different players can be on par in terms of technical skills, but the guy who plays with more feel/touch with regard to the rest of the music will be the better player and will put on a better performance. The trick is figuring out how to capture this with a sequencer, especially if you're penciling your notes into your piano roll, rather than playing it.

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux If you could give an example of how different elements should interact, that would help me out to understand what you are trying to say.

For starters, the kick drum in EDM is your anchor. It's hard-quantized to the beat, so the other percussion instrument's groove will be determined by how they play relative to the kick. It's important that you don't have a bunch of parts trying to groove differently, otherwise you'll end up with a mess - i.e., the parts that groove should groove in sync with each other and in contrast to the rest.

Also, one element of groove that can't be overstated is the dynamics. If you have a part that is playing with a flat-lined velocity (i.e., no accents), it's probably not going to groove very well. That gets back to the touch/feel point that I was trying to make above. Parts that groove will vary in terms of dynamics and will often accent off-beats, all while playing off the beat, some natural variance, etc. Listen to a really good hand percussionist, conga player, etc. in a good funk band and you'll hear exactly what I'm talking about.

From my perspective I still have a lot of learning to do (musical theory + more) and as the older generation I always prefer some small sample to illustrate discuss subject. I usually learn everything by touch, doing it or repeating and always lacking behind with some theory - so base on provided below track can you guys tell me if we have some good groove going on in it or not?

AT5i - Enter Azarynn (Original Mix) [WIP] by DariusX.

groove is a spectrum. I is an aesthetic and it depends on the style. I don't believe the is such thing as 0 or 100. It is subjective somewhat like a chord progression but for some reason , there is a consensus over say how chord succession works even tho there is no natural reason for it. There is no reason why V should go to I. People will start talking about the harmonic series and the circle of fifths but they still don't have a sufficient reason. I mean if V wants to go to I . Then why doesn't I crave to go to IV. Same movement.

Groove is the same. I think it is something that people did thru performance practice aware or not that made something , say compared to a straight quantized version better. I can't prove it is better but nobody would say other wise.

Found the track weird. As far as the rhythm scheme. So ya, on the spectrum , it would be on the weak side.

Good thread. But I agree with TranceLover, some more examples would be nice.

Maybe I will set up a couple loops, with one version straight quantized and the other with some groove.

load a track in Live.

any track with live players. now quantize the audio. listen to the difference.

Yeah, you can also just extract the groove of a track that you like and then apply that to your stuff, which is what I tend to do as I have no idea what I'm doing in this department.

"Groove is in the heart"

quote:

Originally posted by MSZ

So fucking true.

Not to say us honkies don't have groove from time to time, but black and latin musicians always have so much more funk.

for instance, we did a full orchestra recording for a medium budget film using local classical LA musicians. You literally could pick out the (one) black guy in the orchestra (out of 50) as he was playing in the pocket on cello (and it sounded better that the guys playing straight). It was just the tiniest bit late on the bar timings, but all to tempo and never out of sync.

It can be the smallest of changes that give the grove some power - try thing slike just offsetting ever other hat by a small nudge, then go the other way with the toms. Now nudge your bass notes to fit right between them - only a tiny adjustment is needed, and then listen to what happens.

in fairness though, groove is one of the most difficult things to get right as it's about how things interact, not individual elements by themselves. It's like baking cake - you know how one ingredient tastes, but just by altering, subtracting or adding other elements can completely change the taste, how it rises and the consistancy - groove programming is exactly the same thing. You really have to know about how individual parts relate to create the resultant sum.

Here's hwo to rip them from either midi or audio in Logic:

i think some people try to hard too create a groove, and they end up failing. if i said groove comes naturally that would be pretty cliche. if you cant dance, or have ever danced, im not sure how you could feel it very well. i love the lateral feeling of groove. check out this honkey, so minimal yet so groovy.

Velocity is a really important one as has been mentioned. Just varying the difference can make a drastic difference.

I also try to use a drum machine/keys to record notes as it gives a naturally feel. If I need to quantize, I do it manually to keep what I want and move around what needs fixing.

quote:

Originally posted by Sean Walsh Yeah, you can also just extract the groove of a track that you like and then apply that to your stuff, which is what I tend to do as I have no idea what I'm doing in this department.

this is the big misconception.

Every element will have a different quantization grid or groove template. You can't just apply 1 and expect it to work. This is the same as hard quantizing with swing.

Fuck, of course. This explains so much.

quote:

Originally posted by MSZ i think some people try to hard too create a groove, and they end up failing. if i said groove comes naturally that would be pretty cliche. if you cant dance, or have ever danced, im not sure how you could feel it very well. i love the lateral feeling of groove. check out this honkey, so minimal yet so groovy.

No , it really doesn't. But just to humour you

i used the main loop. Applied 4 drastically different quantizations. the original, 16th note , 2 swing settings all hard quantized. You can't tell. And this is why the groove is non existent.



http://www.divshare.com/download/16336375-487

suck my dick ok

Okay. I'll put my head on the choppy block.

Black Cats Groove v. Not by EddieZilker

I'm not even certain if this is just a cheap imitation of what you're talking to, L4C, but this was made in Reason 5. The first part, which is actually the end of a song, was made with ReGroove on. The last half of it (a little more than half, actually) has no tracks assigned to ReGroove - it's strictly quantized to the 1/16th note.

Whether I've missed the point or not, there is a discernible difference between the "groovy" side opposed to the other one.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker Okay. I'll put my head on the choppy block. Black Cats Groove v. Not by EddieZilker I'm not even certain if this is just a cheap imitation of what you're talking to, L4C, but this was made in Reason 5. The first part, which is actually the end of a song, was made with ReGroove on. The last half of it (a little more than half, actually) has no tracks assigned to ReGroove - it's strictly quantized to the 1/16th note. Whether I've missed the point or not, there is a discernible difference between the "groovy" side opposed to the other one.

I agree with the last sentence of this - it's straight as well as having groove, but having said that, it't not amazing example of groove, and it;s a little too separated for me anyway.

This is an oldie but shows how different sample and groves can be combined well - listen to the how the woods, claps, shakers and the metals play off each other....

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