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-- Six years in

Six years in

I've been floating around these forums for about six years now. That's about the time I specifically started learning trance production (mainly with help and resources here).

I've come an unbelievably long way, scraping useful tips and information from anywhere I can. I've learned more music theory and exhausted more creative energy than I have anywhere else. This hobby has driven me to the edge of madness, frustration, and self-doubt. But at the end of it all, I've sincerely cherished every dumb 8-bar loop and half-completed track I've come up with as a result.

The catch 22 of it all is:

The more I learn about trance production and understand how it's done, the less I want to make trance. This genre is so over-saturated these days, as I'm sure many of you have long since realized, so I think it's really time to start exploring other styles in depth. Even moreso, I think it's time to go my own way and find out how to put my own fingerprints on my own brand of music. Whether that be electronic or not (of course it will be to some extent), I'm going to make sure I use everything I've learned here going forward. The production techniques used in this genre are, to me, still cutting edge compared to other electronic genres - there's no ignoring that fact.

I regret not having time to contribute more and get to know you all better rather than just lurk most of the time, but life happens and I've never gotten to treat this hobby as anything more than that since my career takes the driver's seat. I'm not going to disappear completely - I will still show up from time to time - but I'll have even less opportunity to contribute. I'll do my best regardless.

Thanks to all of you contributors out there (you know who you are) who consistently put out useful info, even if the question has been asked a million times before. And as for you newbies - don't stop trying at this even if you think you're not getting anywhere. I've been learning for six years and I've only barely entered competency. It takes time, effort, and hours+hours+hours of trial and error.

I still have a long way to go - just not in the same direction.

Cheers,
Mark

Welcome to the rest of the wide musical world. There is plenty of room here, and so much to explore. And the cool thing is, I can tell you from experience that it is still worth posting on TA even after you no longer make trance.

I took a huge detour 10 years ago going from production to oldschool composition. For about 4 -6 years, did not do anything production related. But honesty, the more I've branched out , the more every thing is kinda the same. Conducting is mixing, adding partials to synth lines is orchestration. I guess not much has really changed.


I only seriously pursued EDM for about 3-4 years till boredom kicked in. I find I go where the challenges are well at least for me. Something gets my attention , I do it ad nauseaum till I am ready for something else.

I've given up on genres or making music that i think others would find cool. Now i just do my own little boring cheezy mediocre tracks which make me happy. I find fulfillment in sound quality and mix quality. laying down melodies and chords i like. Some people dig it and other don't, but i makes me happy

Every now and then i can expedite my expertise on other peoples tracks mixing them for them, which gives me fulfillment as well.

I will never be a great composer, but I'm happy being a decent engineer. and still love playing.

i find the term composition needs to encompass any sort of music creating regardless of genre. I remember all my class mates where so damn adamant about being considered a composer. And they would work with left field stuff like max msp basically making electronic music , of course they would call it electro acoustic music and it would have a score but they were composers, not producers. And a producer was in no way a composer. Not even close. Music students tend to be giant nerds that like , i mean would consider drinking like pretty bad ass.

Re: Six years in

quote:

Originally posted by cl0ckw3rk I've been floating around these forums for about six years now. That's about the time I specifically started learning trance production (mainly with help and resources here). I've come an unbelievably long way, scraping useful tips and information from anywhere I can. I've learned more music theory and exhausted more creative energy than I have anywhere else. This hobby has driven me to the edge of madness, frustration, and self-doubt. But at the end of it all, I've sincerely cherished every dumb 8-bar loop and half-completed track I've come up with as a result. The catch 22 of it all is: The more I learn about trance production and understand how it's done, the less I want to make trance. This genre is so over-saturated these days, as I'm sure many of you have long since realized, so I think it's really time to start exploring other styles in depth. Even moreso, I think it's time to go my own way and find out how to put my own fingerprints on my own brand of music. Whether that be electronic or not (of course it will be to some extent), I'm going to make sure I use everything I've learned here going forward. The production techniques used in this genre are, to me, still cutting edge compared to other electronic genres - there's no ignoring that fact. I regret not having time to contribute more and get to know you all better rather than just lurk most of the time, but life happens and I've never gotten to treat this hobby as anything more than that since my career takes the driver's seat. I'm not going to disappear completely - I will still show up from time to time - but I'll have even less opportunity to contribute. I'll do my best regardless. Thanks to all of you contributors out there (you know who you are) who consistently put out useful info, even if the question has been asked a million times before. And as for you newbies - don't stop trying at this even if you think you're not getting anywhere. I've been learning for six years and I've only barely entered competency. It takes time, effort, and hours+hours+hours of trial and error. I still have a long way to go - just not in the same direction. Cheers, Mark

I can relate to what you are saying and in my experience the more you know a genre the more restrictive it becomes and the more you know the less creative you become.

Ultimately, the problem isn't the genre or the artist, its a lack of creative thinking.

One question that has always bugged me is the question: why do artists seem to push out their best work earlier in their career rather than steadily get better? It would seem logical that the more experience you have the better you get, but I find that its really the opposite. Artists make their best work when they are unknown, become famous, and then push out the same shit that made them famous.

When you first start making music, generally the shit you make sounds pretty wretched in same way or another. But...this is a big but here...you are more creative. Newbies try and make trance or dubstep or whatever with almost little to no knowledge and all they can do is hope and pray for the best. They have no "how-to" formulas that they know, so all they can do is shoot in the dark and hope for the best. They probably won't get close to what they are trying to make, but they may make something entirely different that's just as artistic because they don't have any procedures.

Switching genres is only a superficial answer to the boredom that comes along with producing a genre. Once you "master" the genre you switch to, you'll get bored of that one too because all you do is follow the same procedures you have established for yourself.

Learning about a different genre and mashing two genres together can work to spark creativity, but its not the only way. Creativity is essential blending two or more ideas in the same mental space to form new ideas. These ideas don't have to be musical at all.

This book can explain how to be creative:
http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Thin...25876939&sr=8-1

It's really no wonder that people fall into these creative ruts when they have been trained to follow a logical and set procedure for accomplishing tasks in every area of their life.

quote:

Originally posted by Vector A And the cool thing is, I can tell you from experience that it is still worth posting on TA even after you no longer make trance.

I reckon that there is a good contingent of regular contributors here who don't produce much trance, at least not exclusively. Whereas Anjunabeats, etc seems to be comprised primarily of hardcore tarnceheads, TA seems quite a bit more diverse IME.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney I took a huge detour 10 years ago going from production to oldschool composition. For about 4 -6 years, did not do anything production related. But honesty, the more I've branched out , the more every thing is kinda the same. Conducting is mixing, adding partials to synth lines is orchestration. I guess not much has really changed. I only seriously pursued EDM for about 3-4 years till boredom kicked in. I find I go where the challenges are well at least for me. Something gets my attention , I do it ad nauseaum till I am ready for something else.

I mean, I've always loved listening to trance. Even the crap out there nowadays. Sure I like pre-2000 productions better, but I still enjoy the sounds well enough.

It's just...trance production is so...mechanical. Redundant. Formulaic. I mean, anyone can figure that out before even starting production. You lift up, then you break down. It's a good euphoric rollercoaster but you can only ride it for so long.

Then I look at just good old fashioned songwriting and "olschool composition" as you say. It's so organic, less predictable, full of life, and dynamic by comparison.

People get older. Taste buds change. I'll always dig the electronic scene, even if it is going in awful directions (dubstep)...It just doesn't keep me interested enough production-wise anymore.

I think most people take "composing" to mean writing down scores, something a lot of producers never do.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney Music students tend to be giant nerds that like , i mean would consider drinking like pretty bad ass.

Re: Re: Six years in

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux Switching genres is only a superficial answer to the boredom that comes along with producing a genre. Once you "master" the genre you switch to, you'll get bored of that one too because all you do is follow the same procedures you have established for yourself.

Are you really "switching" genres if you have diverse musical tastes? And, by "genre" I'm referring to the obviously and substantially different ones (e.g., NOT prog trance vs. uplifting or whatever). I think too many people get into the mindset of "I'm a [deep/prog/uplifting/neo/blah/blah/house/techno/trance] producer and let that define who they are and what they should be doing. As people mature and their tastes change, I would guess that those people who have defined themselves so rigidly struggle with branching out and just give up, or keep doing what they've been doing out of habit. In contrast, I think that people who just become a student to the process of making music and have more diverse musical tastes have a much easier time diversifying.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Whereas Anjunabeats, etc seems to be comprised primarily of hardcore wanabee tarnceheads, TA seems quite a bit more diverse IME.

Much better

quote:

Originally posted by Vector A I think most people take "composing" to mean writing down scores, something a lot of producers never do.

I don't know how much more on paper a DAW is. Every single parameter is there. More so than any scoring practice.

quote:

Originally posted by cl0ckw3rk I mean, I've always loved listening to trance. Even the crap out there nowadays. Sure I like pre-2000 productions better, but I still enjoy the sounds well enough. It's just...trance production is so...mechanical. Redundant. Formulaic. I mean, anyone can figure that out before even starting production. You lift up, then you break down. It's a good euphoric rollercoaster but you can only ride it for so long. Then I look at just good old fashioned songwriting and "olschool composition" as you say. It's so organic, less predictable, full of life, and dynamic by comparison. People get older. Taste buds change. I'll always dig the electronic scene, even if it is going in awful directions (dubstep)...It just doesn't keep me interested enough production-wise anymore.

study anything too much and you will have the same opinion. I found orchestral music too limiting in the palette one could use not to mention anything you do has already been done. I mean if one were to ask me what is more relevant, some master student writing in symphonic form or Skrillex, i would say skrillex.

granted one takes a little longer to grasp but in the end, its all the same shit. And people need to stop bashing genres. Dubstep unfortunately seems to have stagnated with the initial push that skrillex and company and that stuff they call complextro ? lol fucking ridiculous name anyways, you know that stuff by gartner which justice kinda started using sounds as a way to build sort of a melodic 8 bar phrase, were doing but what they were initially doing was pretty interesting. Anyone that denies this does not have a firm grasp of music in terms of what has and what hasn't been done. It was new. It was cool. But they just kinda got to level 10. And just took a massive dose of ketamine and got stuck there to the point where all songs have the same sounds and variations from triplet to 16th notes yada yada ....

same here to still love the trance but dont produce it any more i never thought it would happen but it has.

i enjoy learning more about composing today far more interesting and i enjoy it much more.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney I don't know how much more on paper a DAW is. Every single parameter is there. More so than any scoring practice.

Yeah, I see what you mean. I actually like thinking of it as "composition" more than "production" but figure that most people will think I am being pretentious by calling it "composition." Maybe I should just quit caring about that.

Two things srping to mind:

The first is that the term producer has become bastardised for our uses, as opposed to the traditional meaning.

It used to mean the guy that gave an overall feel or subtle changes in aesthetic, rhythm or overall sound to an existing piece of music; a band would have written a track, and the producer just refined it, and certain bands/artists would choose producers based on what they would bring to the band's/artist's sound.

For us (EDM) "producer" means the guy that composes,writes,arranges,sound designs, tracks, engineers, mixes and masters the song from scratch. It's a complete misnoma.

Why bring this up? Becuase I think it's detrimental in some ways to what the ultimate goal is: make a good fucking piece of music. The problem is that all these stages are distractions and spread you thin. Not saying ti can't be done, but most people I know and respect have at least a couple of people helping them now, as they have learned their time is better spent elsewhere to make good music. All my score composing friends, can mix their own scores, but don't as there are people who can do it better and then they don't concentrate on engineering then, just writing something that is worth engineering.

I'm not saying that we can't do it all but often I find that people who are stifled, are caught up by all the other aspects and have forgotten the only goal that matters: make something musically interesting. I could care fucking less if you spent months mastering Zebra just to make that one lead accompaniment.

Theses other processes are technical, not necessarily creative (although there is crossover) and that hurts some of the process IMO.

Maybe it's becuase I've spent a fair bit of time with some serious pro engineers, but when you hear them talking about "producing" they get very nervous, and are nearly terrified not to blur the line of what they are doing and what a real producer is meant to be doing. They are, in their minds, completely separate disciplines.

The second thing is not to over think it - that's why I believe most schranz is formulaic. It's over intellectualised - it's no longer about a vibe that just wants to make you jack your body in a club (ask l4c about his jumpstyle for more info). The shit has been too thought through and that's why I reckon (outside of the "commercial product" reasons) Artists start out interesting, get boring and make formulaic rubbish devout of life or interesting feel.

So when anyone says I find I've got better but I'm less inspired, stop thinking and just do.

Make something on the fly. Use a drum machine. Play/Jam out loud on your keyboard and record it. Get drunk with an artist more talented than or very different to you and record it all.

Stop obsessing about the details and most importantly, stop listening to all the stuff other people make that is formulaic and boring. Listen to people who make something that you're not able to and try to get close, otherwise you're just adding to the pile of dross.

I agree with you djrann especially with the little sentence you wrote at the end.

If you listen to music you dont like or that you find boring or generic youll get kind of a cynical view of music and youll beleive you cant make original or good music because ''if everything is crap then its impossible to not make crap''

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