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Specific detailed advice on mix.

I'm struggling a little with getting that proper uplifting trance sounds at the moment (it's my latest pet peeve) and i've narrowed it down to 2-3 specific areas. I've put the post in here due to the specific nature of the query!

1) Stereo width. I'm starting to suspect there's something i'm missing with creating a wider stereo spread on certain elements of the mix (leads and reverbs) without resorting to doubling up channels or nasty stereo wideners.

2) Mid high frequency content. I've noticed that there's a LOT of mid-highs in current EDM tracks, but for the most part it's not harsh. I'm suspecting there's some multiband compression happening at the mastering stage at about 3-7khz?

3) Kicks. Yes, that old chestnut. I've never really been too bothered A/Bing, but the gap between what I can produce and the thudding impact of some commercial stuff is too large for my liking. I know the subject has been beaten to death but I need to investigate further, I'm fairly happy with the method of an attack portion and a sub portion to a kick, but I can't seem to reproduce the chest thumping mid-low that the likes of Tyas achieves, it bothers be

This is what i'm working on now, and the issues I've raised above are a direct response to what I'm not happy with in this track (which is still at a very early stage obviously, it's just a mix exercise really. Soundcloud has borked the encoding as usual so it's available for download should you have the time. :-

aight,

no mercy cage match tho.

You need to double that clap with something dryer, have the dry one center and the wet one using the sides or hass if you aren't a fan of m/s.

No bass. And when it comes in , well , the part of the track everyone loves is that one part when the bass and minimal percussion is there. You don't have that. I know that isn't mixing but ya.

Ok alot of the things that irk me are more arrangement. So you have all these layers and right now , i don't see the point. Now say , when that main pluck arp comes in , have that play a 1 bar pattern, and then have it replied by that other one you had going as the main pluck one kinda dies out via delay or something.

Ok , you have these other parts right in the breaks that need to come out. Why else are they there, ditch the main arp for a bit , and make room for that new sound.

Once the bass is in, the clap has that awful over compressed sound that i can't stand. Thats why i suggest doubling it with a non compressed like not part of your percussion buss just to make sure the percussion stays meaty.

Hihats are taking alot of space. You are not making good use of panning. Basically you have a bunch of shit on top of other stuff masking everything.

My advice, build to the bass drop by using small fragments, sort of presenting all the material. Now at 0:45, kill everything but the bass, the dry clap/ snare, and thats it. A nice bass that plays off the kick will work great. And thats what people love. That bass ass part where it is just the bass and the percussion kicking ass.

The arps need to be more syncopated. I mean right now , there are no points of syncopation which makes it move groove what ever you call it less.

You only need 1 hihat. You have all this 16th arp stuff going on, it gets lost, it isn't effective.

You need to work on your use of reverb. It isn't that you have too much, its just well at times i don't see the point and at other times, well its ok but you need something else to make it present. Like the clap. That is with the kick your foundation. If you are going to use reverb, well do as i mentioned.

Honestly, it isn't the mix that needs work. The arrangement is just not happening. Not to mention you are sounding a little 2003. The last thing you posted was way better. This is Robby Rox rolling bassline bullshit.

I do like your name and image.

Re: Specific detailed advice on mix.

quote:

Originally posted by tehlord 3) Kicks. Yes, that old chestnut. I've never really been too bothered A/Bing, but the gap between what I can produce and the thudding impact of some commercial stuff is too large for my liking. I know the subject has been beaten to death but I need to investigate further, I'm fairly happy with the method of an attack portion and a sub portion to a kick, but I can't seem to reproduce the chest thumping mid-low that the likes of Tyas achieves, it bothers be

"the secret" of a good kick is actually a good click. If that part is nice and solid, the entire kick can boom. If the attack portion of a kick is weak, then you can't have a thumping kick no matter what you do to the tail.

But the attack portion can also mask the tail portion.

If you have too much in the 300-500 range, it can mask the low end of the kick.

Kicks start out in the 10k range, and ends up in the 30-50Hz range, so part of the frequency band is louder than the rest, it will mask the bands around it with pre and post masking.

The wet clap makes it sound a little dated, but overall good production. Just needs something to make it stand out. Bass could be fuller, seems a bit laid back. Kick could also be a bit punchier.

kind of been having the same problem 2) mate, was contemplating starting a thread. ive been working on my mastering skills a lot lately, im speculating the problem lies with sample/sound choice and sharper sound design skills. then again, i was taking a look at some of the big-name trancey/ prog stuff, and i just find the mastering awful especially in the high-end. i think yours sounds good to my ears. also some masters out there are distorting a bit, and im not into that kind of shit ethically.

what do you think of this master tehlord? never mind the track, i think theres some dissonance lol.

That kick sub layer is in total discordance with its mid to high brother. (The rest would become unmixable with such a mess down there)


To achieve the result you're after fisrt you need to balance the layers in terms of volume.

Play them both in a loop and turn the volume of the higher one UP to the max.
Press stop to let your ears recreate for a second.

Now play them again and start gradually turning the volume down of the high kick until you merge it completely with the low one. It should sound as 1 united animal.

Now send them to a bus. Take the eq and decide how much you wanna cut from the very low end. Use the high area to determine the overall clarity of the kick...and use the sweeping method to find and remove unnatural sounds (boxiness etc.)

Now take the compressor.

Treshold very high, ratio from 5 to 8, hard knee, attack up to let important part of the transient, release to determine snap/tail and control.


This is pretty much.


Of course, if you make wrong choices at the source consider these as empty words.

You must pick the right kicks, you must eq them properly.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney Honestly, it isn't the mix that needs work. The arrangement is just not happening.

This is it.

The track starts nowhere, builds to nowhere and ends nowhere.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney aight, no mercy cage match tho. You need to double that clap with something dryer, have the dry one center and the wet one using the sides or hass if you aren't a fan of m/s. No bass. And when it comes in , well , the part of the track everyone loves is that one part when the bass and minimal percussion is there. You don't have that. I know that isn't mixing but ya. Ok alot of the things that irk me are more arrangement. So you have all these layers and right now , i don't see the point. Now say , when that main pluck arp comes in , have that play a 1 bar pattern, and then have it replied by that other one you had going as the main pluck one kinda dies out via delay or something. Ok , you have these other parts right in the breaks that need to come out. Why else are they there, ditch the main arp for a bit , and make room for that new sound. Once the bass is in, the clap has that awful over compressed sound that i can't stand. Thats why i suggest doubling it with a non compressed like not part of your percussion buss just to make sure the percussion stays meaty. Hihats are taking alot of space. You are not making good use of panning. Basically you have a bunch of shit on top of other stuff masking everything. My advice, build to the bass drop by using small fragments, sort of presenting all the material. Now at 0:45, kill everything but the bass, the dry clap/ snare, and thats it. A nice bass that plays off the kick will work great. And thats what people love. That bass ass part where it is just the bass and the percussion kicking ass. The arps need to be more syncopated. I mean right now , there are no points of syncopation which makes it move groove what ever you call it less. You only need 1 hihat. You have all this 16th arp stuff going on, it gets lost, it isn't effective. You need to work on your use of reverb. It isn't that you have too much, its just well at times i don't see the point and at other times, well its ok but you need something else to make it present. Like the clap. That is with the kick your foundation. If you are going to use reverb, well do as i mentioned. Honestly, it isn't the mix that needs work. The arrangement is just not happening. Not to mention you are sounding a little 2003. The last thing you posted was way better. This is Robby Rox rolling bassline bullshit. I do like your name and image.

Well first of all this isn't even remotely what i'd call an arrangement, it's just an exercise is super clean punchy mixing (which I don't think that last track really achieved) which hasn't reached it's full potential yet. It's little more than a loop at this point.

I can't argue with what you're saying, it's all pretty spot on.

The thing about the reverb is weird. I know how to use a reverb, I know what all the buttons do etc but there's definitely something amiss with my use of it in this style of track. I'm wondering if I should just high pass and duck the crap out of it and set it all to huge.

And yeah, the clap is rubbish

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux "the secret" of a good kick is actually a good click. If that part is nice and solid, the entire kick can boom. If the attack portion of a kick is weak, then you can't have a thumping kick no matter what you do to the tail. But the attack portion can also mask the tail portion. If you have too much in the 300-500 range, it can mask the low end of the kick. Kicks start out in the 10k range, and ends up in the 30-50Hz range, so part of the frequency band is louder than the rest, it will mask the bands around it with pre and post masking.

Yeah I agree about the attack, but I think there's more to it than that. There's a quality about the best kicks that you feel in your chest, in the same way you do in a club but at much lower volumes. I've yet to identify the source of that part of the kicks. It's certainly not done with boosting a kick from a sample pack at a certain frequency imo.

quote:

Originally posted by Evolve140 The wet clap makes it sound a little dated, but overall good production. Just needs something to make it stand out. Bass could be fuller, seems a bit laid back. Kick could also be a bit punchier.

Ah yes, but I'M dated don't forget

quote:

Originally posted by MSZ kind of been having the same problem 2) mate, was contemplating starting a thread. ive been working on my mastering skills a lot lately, im speculating the problem lies with sample/sound choice and sharper sound design skills. then again, i was taking a look at some of the big-name trancey/ prog stuff, and i just find the mastering awful especially in the high-end. i think yours sounds good to my ears. also some masters out there are distorting a bit, and im not into that kind of shit ethically. what do you think of this master tehlord? never mind the track, i think theres some dissonance lol.

Your track isn't available.

I know what you mean though, although a lot of stuff you hear is really harsh, a lot of it is nicely done too. It's not just a boost to the 10k region to give a track air, there's definitely something in the mid high's too that's well controlled and never harsh. I'm sure it's there for added volume, and perhaps I shouldn't fret over it but i'm just A/B'ing mine against the rest for comparison.

i knwo you asked for mixing advice, but the issue is arrangement. You want it to be punchy, you need to start with the foundation. Sort of like say tracking is to mixing. Shit in, shit out.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney i knwo you asked for mixing advice, but the issue is arrangement. You want it to be punchy, you need to start with the foundation. Sort of like say tracking is to mixing. Shit in, shit out.

You're talking about stuff that's being put together rather than the structure and layout of the track I assume?

If so, I heartily concur.


I still heart 2003 though.

ya,

it is hard to be punchy when you have all this stuff going on in such a non organized manner.
Can you post just the percussion and bass line.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney ya, it is hard to be punchy when you have all this stuff going on in such a non organized manner. Can you post just the percussion and bass line.

Will do, although I really need to sort the sub bass first. I've fiddled with the kick and hats a lot since as well.

The sub is shite though, it's like a fat man groaning pitched down an octave.

Ok, if you're looking for the old TYAS, Simon Patterson & Paul Miller type stuff, the synths need to be more raw, not so sweet and smooth
also you miss the hyped reverse sucking clap between every 3 and 4

further i sort of agree with L4C, but to put that into perspective YOU have a distinct sound as well, I would try to capitalize on that, do what gives YOU goosebumps, not focusing to much what's "lacking" compared to what others did before.

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie Ok, if you're looking for the old TYAS, Simon Patterson & Paul Miller type stuff, the synths need to be more raw, not so sweet and smooth also you miss the hyped reverse sucking clap between every 3 and 4 further i sort of agree with L4C, but to put that into perspective YOU have a distinct sound as well, I would try to capitalize on that, do what gives YOU goosebumps, not focusing to much what's "lacking" compared to what others did before.

I totally agree, I'm just trying to nail a few of the more specific mix techniques that i've yet to master to my own satisfaction. I've really just thrown mixes together for trance stuff in the past so I guess I'm trying to muster a couple of years worth of more technical practise into a couple of weeks

Anyhoo, here's a revised drum and bassline all naked. First half without sub and the second half with a new, simpler and totally cliched offbeat sub bass.




And here's the 'full' mix of the revisions.

I'm much happier with the kick this time, although I still think the hats and percussion in general are missing something.

If it's just for mastering the sound, you're already way beyond that sound on me. difference i hear is the more VEC type percussion and less smooth synths (so probably filters further open, bit more spiky sound)

quote:

Originally posted by Raphie If it's just for mastering the sound, you're already way beyond that sound on me. difference i hear is the more VEC type percussion and less smooth synths (so probably filters further open, bit more spiky sound)

Yeah I need to add more in the way of aggressive acid distorted loveliness now

I was experimenting the other night with kick layering and thought, why the hell am I always layering using kicks from drum machines? (synthetic kicks).
Why not use actual real kick drum one shots from actual real drums?
The fact that these samples are recordings of actual air moving gives them a nice unique tone that can work really well. A lot of "metal" type kicks worked really well because they are usually very tight and are compressed and eq'd to cut through a very dense mix of guitars which are mainly mid range. If they can cut through a wall of guitar riffs they should cut through a EDM track.

There is also another trick that I have seen someone do (although I havent heard of anyone doing it with EDM but its interesting). Ive seen a rock mix engineer crank an entire drum mix through his mains monitors and actualy mic up and record the sound coming from the monitors in the room. Apparantlly for huge rock drum sounds, is was very common during tape days to crank the drum mix through a massive PA in a live room and have it really pumping, they would mic it up and record it then blend it in with the original drum tracks.

Im struggling with stereo width and depth too but I have been experimenting with the waves "center" plugin which allows volume control of sides and center of mix. I now realise that even when a stereo source (a stereo reverb for example) is stereo, it still has a fair bit of information in the center which narrows it.
I opened an instance of "center" on the reverb return track and pulled down the center fader and couldnt believe the difference it made to the stereo width perception, especially while the entire song was playing. Definatelly a technique I am going to use in the future.

By the way, I think you're songs sound great, I'd be more than happy with myself if my tracks sounded like that.

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...s=#.T03E7fUmySo

quote:

Originally posted by madmuso I was experimenting the other night with kick layering and thought, why the hell am I always layering using kicks from drum machines? (synthetic kicks). Why not use actual real kick drum one shots from actual real drums? The fact that these samples are recordings of actual air moving gives them a nice unique tone that can work really well.

This applies to me so it might not be useful to you, but it's worth mentioning.

1. Contrast. Using chorus properly on a synth will widen it enough, then down the road in your mix, items that are less wide and more center will create a nice contrast. My pads tend to be the widest, and my leads tend to be more centered. Drums of couse are nearly always panned center, with some exceptions. You'll need to draw contrast with wide and center synths, though. Example: Widest = some form of pad, most center = your lower octave bass instruments.

2. Was it harsh before the mastering process? This would imply that mastering solves the issue with multiband, but I assure you it should sound decent before the mastering. I saw a tutorial where these 2 jackasses in a studio were gawking about how much better the track sounded after they mastered it, and at the EQ stage they were saying before the EQ it sounded bad, and after it sounded good, mastering shouldn't be considered a fixer, more like a finalizer.

3. Choosing the right kick, right off the bat. It helps to choose the kick first. Making room for the kick in your mix is probably the biggest step. The duration of the kick is very important. Keep that in check. Don't just rely on side chaining, but that will probably help you make room the most. Busses like perc, synth, bass, etc, can all affect the room the kick has, not just the bass bus. Also, the signal that you use for your side chain, depending on its sonic qualities and its lenghth, will give drastically different results, especially when you consider the different variables involved in setting the compressor to begin with. I always work around the side chain signal itself. Try using a shortened sample of the same kick drum you're using in the track. Subtle nuances will make or break the quality of the mix, and indeed whether or not the kick has quality presence. This, of all things, took me the longest to master.

quote:

Originally posted by Normie http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...s=#.T03E7fUmySo

cool!

quote:

Originally posted by madmuso cool!

I've had it a little while now and can recommend it highly, if for no other reasons than to sample the sounds. It is an awesome vst that might help a lot of people's kick woes, especially if they use the overheads and room mike feature.

And for $30 USD it's a no brainer for paring with 808/909 kicks. The toms are great...it's just excellent overall.
-----

Give it a shot Tehlord, The demo is free.

I think you need to isolate your bass part better as that version you posted still sounds like 3 layers/ The hihat really is killing your space offering little. I was trying to get you to hear the foundation and make that solid before anything else but you need to really just have the bass and percussion. No synth doublings. IF that is just one synth, then you need to deconstruct that synth and make it so you can hear just the bass line without the top end synths.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney I was trying to get you to hear the foundation and make that solid before anything else but you need to really just have the bass and percussion.

You did, and trust me the previous version was considerably, considerably worse.

Rest of feedback duly noted.

new version is definitely a step in the right direction and way more relevant to my interdasts. ill have a listen tomorrow on a proper setup and tear it to shreds as best i can >.>

I'm not ignoring your thread, I just don't feel I can particularly help mate. Could you post up an embedded example track of what your'e aspiring to.

Personally the kick doesn't groove for me, it's not something I can put words to, but for this track I think a different kick would give it a better foundation. It needs to speak to the bass, be in keeping with it.

It's so much a taste call in the end, but I'm imagining something more Tekky and minimal without sounding too small though.

Chooosing the right kik is I think one of the top 3 competencies required in edm and I can say hand on heart I've never yet been satisfied with my own choices. It's litteraly as crucial as cooking a piece of fish to 3 Michelin* perfection. Sorry for the food analogy yet again folks! I actually have this sense that many of us, self included, don't even recognise the subbtleties involved in this. We know whan something sounds right, but not why.

But we like a challenge, so chin up, never give in me lad!

alright so listened finally at home, and it's certainly not a bad start. im interested in hearing what your idea is for the central theme of this track outside of teh pluck/sine melodies

as far as bass goes, you need a driving mid bassline that pwns teh face and then beef up the acid and booooom you can has tyas

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