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None are more hopelessly enslaved

than those who falsely believe they are free ...

quote:

"We seriously demand and expect that the government of the United States punish the culprits and try them in a public trial before the people of Afghanistan," the lower house of parliament said in statement. Condemning the killings as "brutal and inhuman", parliament declared that "people are running out of patience over the ignorance of foreign forces". The US soldier walked off his base, heavily armed and with night vision equipment, and broke into three village homes before dawn Sunday, killing 16 people including women and children, according to Western and Afghan sources. He is in US custody and is subject to US military law, rather than Afghan law. President Barack Obama telephoned Afghan President Hamid Karzai to promise a speedy investigation into the killings, which fanned already smouldering anger among Afghans over the burning of Korans at a US military base last month.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...nt-demands.html

quote:

First we had American soldiers burning copies of the Koran, and now we have the appalling sight of an American soldier running rampage in Afghanistan and killing 16 innocent Afghan civilians, including nine children. No wonder the Nato mission is going to hell in a handcart. We all know that soldiers, without the proper training and discipline, can easily degenerate into a murderous rabble that terrorises the local population. We have seen this happen hundreds of times in Africa where armies are no different from the militias who rape, murder and loot at will. But that is not how it is supposed to be with the Armed Forces of the Western powers, particularly those engaged in sensitive peacekeeping operations, which is what the U.S. troops in Afghanistan are supposed to be doing. The problem in Afghanistan, though, is that Nato forces � the Americans are the largest contingent � are trying to conduct a peacekeeping operation while at the same time fighting a very nasty war against the Taliban.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/c...in-afghanistan/

quote:

First we had American soldiers burning copies of the Koran

And such a serious crime that. People should be killed�oh wait.

I start every sunday afternoon burning a Koran copy, I usually run out of wood by that end of the week, so I use the muslim propaganda free copy stockpile to warm it all up. Thick fuckin' book it is, burns a while.

I feel sorry for Afghanistan.

Maybe they'll all cheer up when we give them some of that Pony magic!

enslaved?

what does you mean you make a slave in
da afterlife
dis be more racist bullshit dat I what what what running into herr

Well you must not be black playa as a brother in chains led by a white man be a slave no matter how dey try and spin it!!!

What the fuck am I reading

quote:

Originally posted by FuzzQi What the fuck am I reading

ma girl she always say ma mandingo be as big as a cabbage patch doll


u can fellate ma
mandingo
til ma balls withered and deflated

quote:

Originally posted by FuzzQi What the fuck am I reading

Hey watch the language, lest ye wish to incur the wrath of Princess Luna and THE POWER OF LUNA'S CAPS LOCK!

2012 is such a strange year.

From reading the first quote alone, I agree. That insane US soldier should be tried before the people of Afghanistan.

quote:

Originally posted by Jake Benson From reading the first quote alone, I agree. That insane US soldier should be tried before the people of Afghanistan.

Been reading about this for a couple of days now. I have to say, I agree with you.

Pretty insane shit

So, the USA want to punish their own soldier because he's one of theirs, but he committed a crime in Afghanistan, not the US territories. This same country have just refused to let us in the UK try 2 or 3 people on seperate charges and insisted they be extradited to the US because the crimes were against themselves. Surely thats a contradiction if ever there was one?

quote:

Originally posted by Ian So, the USA want to punish their own soldier because he's one of theirs, but he committed a crime in Afghanistan, not the US territories. This same country have just refused to let us in the UK try 2 or 3 people on seperate charges and insisted they be extradited to the US because the crimes were against themselves. Surely thats a contradiction if ever there was one?

It's pretty dodgy, admittedly.

If he's tried by the US military, he'll likely end up in a mental institution... rightly so. Obviously, he has some pretty severe issues, to go and do something like that.

The flip side... he committed a crime in a foreign country, and should be held to that country's laws. If I was in another country and I fucked up, I would be tried there, with their laws.

I tend to agree with the 'flip side', though I have no idea what Afghanistan's laws are, regarding people that are mentally ill.

quote:

Originally posted by Sushipunk If he's tried by the US military, he'll likely end up in a mental institution... rightly so. Obviously, he has some pretty severe issues, to go and do something like that.

Yeah you're right BUT what if this happened in the states and he murdered Americans? It wouldn't be off to the looney bin for him...Our soldiers have been getting off way too easy for these horrific crimes.

He needs to be made an example of. Guy's running around in OUR uniform. It shouldn't be tolerated.

quote:

Originally posted by LAdazeNYnights Yeah you're right BUT what if this happened in the states and he murdered Americans? It wouldn't be off to the looney bin for him...Our soldiers have been getting off way too easy for these horrific crimes. He needs to be made an example of. Guy's running around in OUR uniform. It shouldn't be tolerated.

Did you read my whole post? That's kinda what I said He should be tried in Afghanistan, and held to their laws. But, I don't know what their laws are.

Can of worms: What if he got the death penalty? In either the US or Afghanistan. Would that be the right thing to do?

quote:

Originally posted by Sushipunk Did you read my whole post? That's kinda what I said He should be tried in Afghanistan, and held to their laws. But, I don't know what their laws are.

yeah i did. you said that you tend towards one side...to me, there's only one reasonable response (given the way it's been framed)


as for your can of worms - irrelevant. again, let's discuss this in the way it has been (and ultimately will be) framed.

quote:

Originally posted by Sushipunk Did you read my whole post? That's kinda what I said He should be tried in Afghanistan, and held to their laws. But, I don't know what their laws are. Can of worms: What if he got the death penalty? In either the US or Afghanistan. Would that be the right thing to do?

If the laws of Afghanistan say it then yes it should. Take the shootings in Norway, if he wasn't white then there'd have been a massive backlash, more than there was and he wouldn't be in a mental institution. The punishment should be where the crime was imho regardless of if this was a yank, a british soldier or any other nationality, he brutalised children & women, the most innocent of all.

Sorta moving on, it makes me giggle sometimes here to see some muslims wanting sharia law brought in because these are the people who disrespect their teachings and faith by committing adultery, thieving, drinking etc and the punishments under sharia would be way more serious than what they get away with under ours!

quote:

Originally posted by LAdazeNYnights yeah i did. you said that you tend towards one side...to me, there's only one reasonable response (given the way it's been framed) as for your can of worms - irrelevant. again, let's discuss this in the way it has been (and ultimately will be) framed.

Sorry man, I must be misunderstanding you (forgive me, I've had a couple of glasses of wine)

Do you:

(a) Think that the US army should take care of it, because he's one of their soldiers (albeit in a foreign country) ... or,
(b) Think he should be tried in Afghanistan, the country he committed the rather serious crimes in (with their laws).

I've had a few beers so I might not be totally clear.

I don't care where he's tried honestly - I don't think that's the point. If he's tried in military court and gets executed/life in prison then I don't think people can be too unhappy about that. If he's tried in Afghanistan and gets stoned to death that's pretty cool too. As long as the punishment fits the crime (e.g. he isn't simply dishonorably discharged) then it's alll good

War crimes are not and should not be tried in the country where they're committed for this very reason. "Made an example of"? You can't be that stupid. Just like lawyers can move for a trial to be moved to a different area due to the impossibility of a local jury being impartial, the same applies to this.

If he was "tried" (and I use that term very loosely) in Afghanistan, he'd likely be tortured for an extended period of time, and then executed in a likely horrific fashion. You're essentially arguing that he should be executed with no trial instead of receiving due process.

quote:

Originally posted by srussell0018 War crimes are not and should not be tried in the country where they're committed for this very reason. "Made an example of"? You can't be that stupid. Just like lawyers can move for a trial to be moved to a different area due to the impossibility of a local jury being impartial, the same applies to this. If he was "tried" (and I use that term very loosely) in Afghanistan, he'd likely be tortured for an extended period of time, and then executed in a likely horrific fashion. You're essentially arguing that he should be executed with no trial instead of receiving due process.

You make a good point. Then don't try him in Afghanistan, but why do you think the US is capable of giving him a 'fair' trial? Do you really think the scales won't be heavily tipped in his favor? He absolutely should be made an example of. Every single commercial I see on fucking tv (rarely watch tv, still see these commercials) for the marines, navy, or army is alllll about how these guys are our image overseas. How they go where others can't to do things others won't and make America look so great.

Whatever the case may be, we shouldn't be in that country anymore anyway. Nothing good will come of it. Koran burning (accidental) and now this? blaahhh




also - damn russell you're up early or what?

quote:

Originally posted by LAdazeNYnights I've had a few beers so I might not be totally clear. I don't care where he's tried honestly

I don't either. Do not care.

But, which do you think is right? The international/political issue is kinda what I mean with this.

quote:

Originally posted by srussell0018 War crimes

War crimes are pretty specific, by law. To be pardoned from them requires a fair few factors. Factors that don't include wandering off, alone, with night vision equipment, and shooting 16 people without being given orders to do so.

The "orders to do so" part is especially important, here.

quote:

An action carried out during the conduct of a war that violates accepted international rules of war.

Fits pretty well.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2441

"War crimes" are essentially any breach of the Geneva Convention which are perpetrated in association with an armed conflict. It's pretty cut and dry.

quote:

Originally posted by Sushipunk I don't either. Do not care. But, which do you think is right? The international/political issue is kinda what I mean with this.

Is the law really that fuzzy in this regard? There must be rules set by international bodies about how to deal with crimes committed by off-duty soldiers when abroad.

I do think he should be tried in Afghanistan, but under the watchful eye of the rest of the world (as would happen if that were the case). Russell suggested (rightfully) that their justice system is totally fucked, but for this sort of case I think that a lot of pressure would be put on them to act decently and provide him with a fair trial.

If he's tried by the US, I don't think he should be executed (I simply don't believe in it...) but I do think he should be severely punished. I don't have all the answers...

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