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workflow problem

I was reading the 4 hour workweek and i think i need to cut down on some shit i do while producing. I endlessly tweak things and it really cuts down on my writing productivity. I will dick around with volume automation for like a couple of hours on one part and not get a thing done. maybe i was thinking i should just try and write a song in 2 hours, and at the end just stop but no real mixing or sound design.

i can separate the sound design into another session, and then when the writing is done is save up a pool of tracks and then pick the best one to mix down. Maybe like 5 or so. Not writing a full track is killing me though...its killing me more than making the bass be perfect or whatever.

i think avicii does writing/arrangement first and armin said his best tracks come, he writes in 2-3 hours...

I'm thinking maybe start out with a loop or some samples, and then just banging out with presets and stuff that i've already made. afterwards, pick the best out of a liter of 5 tracks and polish sounds and mix...thoughts?

Get a job where the book is applied easier.

I read the book myself but I'm too easily distracted. I've tried to apply some of it to my life and it has helped, even though I haven't done a proper implementation of it I guess.

The problem is, making music is a creative process for the most of us. I wouldn't finish a single thing by seperating different activities related to music production. I think of melodies and sounds whilst creating beats or just by listening. I have to act on impulse to get anything decent out of it. It just doesn't work for me, and I must admit I've tried several times. I could just go on a sound-design tour, but it wouldn't really work since I'm randomly designing sounds. It is easier for me to try and achieve the sound I am looking for when there is a half finished track to refer to.

When Avicii did the "in the studio" serious with futuremusic, he first starts the track by coming up with a main melody. Then, he simply busts out the track in less than 2 hours. He finds sounds that work for the melody, then he finds percussion that works, then he does the intro, the first break and then he finishes the rest of the track. He said after that he sits down and does all the mixing etc.

quote:

Originally posted by jayxthekoolest When Avicii did the "in the studio" serious with futuremusic, he first starts the track by coming up with a main melody. Then, he simply busts out the track in less than 2 hours. He finds sounds that work for the melody, then he finds percussion that works, then he does the intro, the first break and then he finishes the rest of the track. He said after that he sits down and does all the mixing etc.

I think laidback puke does his tracks in 4...3 for writing then half for mixing and half and hour for mastering.

Horses for courses. I can't get motivated enough by a track unless each sound is in my view as perfect as possible. I find then as each layer builds I get more inspired to then address the next item.


Just do what feels right to you I think. This reminds me of martial arts. The one I stuck with for years is Krav Maga because it's all about doing what comes more natrually to you, rather than sticking you in a straight jacket.

Re: workflow problem

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux i think avicii does writing/arrangement first and armin said his best tracks come, he writes in 2-3 hours... I'm thinking maybe start out with a loop or some samples, and then just banging out with presets and stuff that i've already made. afterwards, pick the best out of a liter of 5 tracks and polish sounds and mix...thoughts?

The Armin thing has always been the same for me - the main bulk of my best tracks is put together really quickly - why? cos if it works it works...

I still think you need to have an idea of the sound of the track or idea you are going for, nothing wrong with playing around with loops as ideas can spring from that but it can also be a recipe for going nowhere

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Originally posted by Richard Butler Just do what feels right to you I think. This reminds me of martial arts. The one I stuck with for years is Krav Maga because it's all about doing what comes more natrually to you, rather than sticking you in a straight jacket.

I think I am sticking myself in straight jacket, trying to make everything perfect and nothing comes together. It really doesn't matter how perfect I make something, if it's not going to come together.

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Originally posted by Beatflux I think I am sticking myself in straight jacket, trying to make everything perfect and nothing comes together. It really doesn't matter how perfect I make something, if it's not going to come together.

Maybe post an example so I can see what your'e getting at by 'it's not comming together'.

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Originally posted by Richard Butler Maybe post an example so I can see what your'e getting at by 'it's not comming together'.

I am just stuck in a rut, I write like one motif, extend it out and then it turns into an orgy of excessive tweaking.

yakult_41_final.wav - 35.3 Mb

quote:

Originally posted by jayxthekoolest .... first starts the track by coming up with a main melody.

It is my way of doing businesses (even when I was your age and play in rock band we almost always started with base melody).

Darek

Great things take time. Now there are ways to use that time efficiently but this attitude of doing things quick tends to churn up derivative generic music. You want to be commercial and pop, that is fine but you have the same people slagging bass hunter doing e same fucking thing.

if you don't see real progress is better to quit that project and start a new one, maybe some weeks later you are more inspired. If it works the whole process is very intuitive and you can have a track done in 3 days without much hassle, but to make something out of the box even if it works and you are inspired is going to take time.

Anything envolving a lot of automation of the plugins, creating complex percussion loops, several micro layers with variations of a sound, polished mix and elaborated melodies... at least a week of hard work there is no secret way to do it faster.

I think it comes down to lacking inspiration. I've been trying so hard to make something in the progressive format, but my muse is not really going for it anymore...

When I go for crazy ideas, I tend to finish them just because they excite me.

I listen to stuff that's already out there, and even though I like the stuff that's out there, trying to make stuff that's already been done just kind of bores me in a way.

I think I just have to go with my muse...that crazy broad.

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Originally posted by Beatflux I think laidback puke does his tracks in 4...3 for writing then half for mixing and half and hour for mastering.

and thats why all his tracks sound like 4 loops with different quantization. sure, they're clean sounding, but that's about where the praise stops.

Also, friends of me (dj's) who's seen him spin live at festivals etc. say he just goes 1 bar of turning the cdj-wheel backwards -> x-fader over to next song. He's a lazy twat who's gotten lucky with a few of his mashups.

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Originally posted by dj_alfi and thats why all his tracks sound like 4 loops with different quantization. sure, they're clean sounding, but that's about where the praise stops. Also, friends of me (dj's) who's seen him spin live at festivals etc. say he just goes 1 bar of turning the cdj-wheel backwards -> x-fader over to next song. He's a lazy twat who's gotten lucky with a few of his mashups.

His tracks are often so damn simple, for me isn't a producer to look up at all. About djing the technique i have seen videos and not only is a lazy ass but his technique is arguably. The only remarcable think is his that his sets are pretty diverse including several edm and non edm forms, if you like his stuff probably you'd enjoy his sets. I play a cypress hill bootleg by him often, i think it's cool to drop some classics from non strictly edm genres from time to time.

Avicii is similar thing but his melodies are elaborated and has an eye to create a hit, well it works for him picked what deadmau5 was doing 3 years ago and commercialized it. Instant sucess, once he has written the melody he can deliver a track of the kind in a week for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney Great things take time. this attitude of doing things quick tends to churn up derivative generic music. You

Fully agree here.

Just ask yourself this question peeps; would you see value in lets say a lump of stone very roughly carved in 4 hours, or would you see value in say a church gargoyle which a craftsman spent weeks or even months carving?

Do you value many painting made in 4 hours or do you marvell at master works that took masses of sweat and effort to create?

The easy bit is that first 2 hours 'fun' bit when it's all creation, but thats only the start of the story of making art.

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux I am just stuck in a rut, I write like one motif, extend it out and then it turns into an orgy of excessive tweaking. yakult_41_final.wav - 35.3 Mb

I took a listen - your'e always brutal with my tracks with typical a 3 word comment, but I'll try and give you some detail here.

Firstly the mix is excellent - to me your halve way there with that alone and it sound loud, energetic, clear and rounded.

I like the groove to, that's good.

Liking that lead pluck sound.

You've got the talent to make good tracks I suspect.

On the downside - and this is where the point about there being no short cuts comes in, the verb is not quite right on the early percs - it doesn't have those reflective bouncy subbtle qualities, it's to standard hall sounding - things like this take time (in case anyones still saying most tracks can be knowcked up in a few hours). For example the verb has to work on a variety of systems - there's no rushing this sort of systematic tracking down of good qualities.


And from a very decent start indeed, the track doesn't really go anywhere.

So by no means any kind of fail, but based on this example the overall composition needs to travel and get to somewhere.

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Originally posted by Richard Butler I took a listen - your'e always brutal with my tracks with typical a 3 word comment, but I'll try and give you some detail here. Firstly the mix is excellent - to me your halve way there with that alone and it sound loud, energetic, clear and rounded. I like the groove to, that's good. Liking that lead pluck sound. You've got the talent to make good tracks I suspect. On the downside - and this is where the point about there being no short cuts comes in, the verb is not quite right on the early percs - it doesn't have those reflective bouncy subbtle qualities, it's to standard hall sounding - things like this take time (in case anyones still saying most tracks can be knowcked up in a few hours). For example the verb has to work on a variety of systems - there's no rushing this sort of systematic tracking down of good qualities. And from a very decent start indeed, the track doesn't really go anywhere. So by no means any kind of fail, but based on this example the overall composition needs to travel and get to somewhere.

Thanks for the feedback.

I could definitely hear some nice and cool ideas in this demo but need to be farther develop or unwind - can give you a lot of credit for what you have done so far, you know what you are doing (and that's good sign).

I though that your mouth is bigger then your talent but I guess I was wrong

Cheers man,

Darek

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux I am just stuck in a rut, I write like one motif, extend it out and then it turns into an orgy of excessive tweaking. yakult_41_final.wav - 35.3 Mb

Production is pretty good, its just that the track doesnt really go anywhere for me - sounds like a collection of different ideas rather than 1 idea

K, thx guys.

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux I am just stuck in a rut, I write like one motif, extend it out and then it turns into an orgy of excessive tweaking. yakult_41_final.wav - 35.3 Mb

Holy fuck, it's contagious!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux I am just stuck in a rut, I write like one motif, extend it out and then it turns into an orgy of excessive tweaking. yakult_41_final.wav - 35.3 Mb

I hear you. The way to rationalise it is like this: there's no point tweaking like mad in the early stages of the track cause you'll only have to re-tweak as you add more stuff.

One of the less great bits of advice I've heard is to copy a track you like. This is tough cause more often than not you'll hear a particular element and either a) be baffled as to how it was made, or b) assume it was made a particular way and when you try to replicate, you frustratingly fail - this is because most elements are never made the way you assume, and sometimes, there's more going on than what you think - and there are always more layers than what you think.

My more successful methods have been to stick to an 8 or 16 bar loop and try to finish that as if it were a complete track. That way, at least you can prove to yourself that you can get something professional-sounding, from which you can then continue with the arrangement.

My biggest weakness is that as I produce, my ears get accustomed to what I'm hearing and I become biased towards my own track - to me it sounds fantastic. It's only until I a/b it with a pro track that reality kicks in - my tune wouldn't get a fly moving. "Using your ears" is not always a good idea because your ears can deceive you like mad. I guess it's important to keep comparing to a pro track to keep in check with reality. Stick to wanting things to sound perfect in order to be inspired and move on, but give yourself a bracket to work within like an 8 or 16 bar loop - if you're 60% happy with the bass synth/pattern and can't improve on it, move on and come back to it. You'd be surprised how elements sound when combined with other elements.

Trance production is hardest for those of us doing it by ourselves. A lot of producers when starting off knew other producers, so a lot of good advice was fed to them upfront. But if all you have is yourself and the Web, it can get difficult. Google has a lot of stuff, but it doesn't have everything.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Butler Fully agree here. Just ask yourself this question peeps; would you see value in lets say a lump of stone very roughly carved in 4 hours, or would you see value in say a church gargoyle which a craftsman spent weeks or even months carving? Do you value many painting made in 4 hours or do you marvell at master works that took masses of sweat and effort to create? The easy bit is that first 2 hours 'fun' bit when it's all creation, but thats only the start of the story of making art.

Im not sure i agree with your analogy here. Are you saying that a an absolutely brilliant beautiful track cannot be created in a few hours???

Like if someone showed you a painting and you thought it was amazing but then found out it was only made in 4 hours would that change your opinion of the painting??

Only reason im asking is that im pretty sure that some of my most favourite tracks didnt take weeks to make

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Butler Fully agree here. Just ask yourself this question peeps; would you see value in lets say a lump of stone very roughly carved in 4 hours, or would you see value in say a church gargoyle which a craftsman spent weeks or even months carving? Do you value many painting made in 4 hours or do you marvell at master works that took masses of sweat and effort to create? The easy bit is that first 2 hours 'fun' bit when it's all creation, but thats only the start of the story of making art.

I watched "Jiro Dreams of Sushi" and he is a certifiable sushi master. He's 85 years old and he's been making sushi for 75 years...pretty extreme. He goes through extremely lengths to ensure his sushi is the best tasting and the experience of the customer is excellent. He says none of his techniques are secret, he just does every step extremely well. The octopus is massaged for 40-50 minutes to get the softness right and so the flavor of the octopus can come out. Every little detail is scrutinized and then rechecked.

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