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I can't pretend that digital is more enjoyable... maybe I'm too old?!

I love listening to Nick Warrens old mixes.

When he's in the middle of mixing two tracks, and they drift a bit. It's what makes the mix. It lives BECAUSE of the imperfection. It's real. It's got soul. It works. It's better.

A robot can play a guitar clinically, perfectly - but it doesn't touch you. A human plays a guitar and it stirs your soul.

Sorry. Just sayin!!

Ah here that's all a load of bollox.

Just because something has imperfections in it doesn't mean it's any more real than something that is a lot more flawless.

Back in the day you'd admire a mix that you knew was done on older equipment but was still flawless. The fact that computers are involved now just means my attention has now been shifted to pay closer attention to other aspects of dj'ing that i might not have given as much thought to previously.

A lot of dj's have become a lot more innovative with the technology around.

End of the day I know (being a dj) that my ears pick up on the slightest off beat during a transition. Yes it's lovely when everything is corrected swiftly and what not but some times a bad mix can continue on for quite some time and to me it's painful listening to it especially if it happens often during a mix.

Beat matching mistakes giving a mix soul. I think not. Track selection gives a mix soul.

Just sayin'

quote:

Originally posted by n3lly Ah here that's all a load of bollox. Just because something has imperfections in it doesn't mean it's any more real than something that is a lot more flawless. Back in the day you'd admire a mix that you knew was done on older equipment but was still flawless. The fact that computers are involved now just means my attention has now been shifted to pay closer attention to other aspects of dj'ing that i might not have given as much thought to previously. A lot of dj's have become a lot more innovative with the technology around. End of the day I know (being a dj) that my ears pick up on the slightest off beat during a transition. Yes it's lovely when everything is corrected swiftly and what not but some times a bad mix can continue on for quite some time and to me it's painful listening to it especially if it happens often during a mix. Beat matching mistakes giving a mix soul. I think not. Track selection gives a mix soul. Just sayin'

While you are right that track selection plays a key role, I also favor minor (!) drifting in mixes, not the type where it's clearly offbeat but the type when you hear small phase changes on the bass for example, it brings a bit dynamic to the beat during mixes. I think the instrument analogy fits perfectly here.

I mix digitally and I set the pitch by ear, where is your God now?

quote:

Originally posted by n3lly Ah here that's all a load of bollox. Just because something has imperfections in it doesn't mean it's any more real than something that is a lot more flawless. Back in the day you'd admire a mix that you knew was done on older equipment but was still flawless. The fact that computers are involved now just means my attention has now been shifted to pay closer attention to other aspects of dj'ing that i might not have given as much thought to previously. A lot of dj's have become a lot more innovative with the technology around. End of the day I know (being a dj) that my ears pick up on the slightest off beat during a transition. Yes it's lovely when everything is corrected swiftly and what not but some times a bad mix can continue on for quite some time and to me it's painful listening to it especially if it happens often during a mix. Beat matching mistakes giving a mix soul. I think not. Track selection gives a mix soul. Just sayin'

I'm not talking about trainwrecks!

This is a great example (at the beginning) of a drifting mix, and I honestly think that it adds 'something' to the mix. Fucking awesome track too!

that's not drifting, that's horrible dj work. I thought you meant minute changes in the phase gradually happening over several bars, which indeed is very pleasing. That just was a sub-par transition.

it puzzles me that the soul you find in music happens at the transition of 2 tracks that more or less are quantized via a sequencer. I understand how djing somehow seems less fun but i think if anything, the one thing lost was the performance aspect of playing something that looked like an instrument. Like playing electronic drums versus real drums. One looks better and feels better.

Beat matching is not a musical process. It is technical. You are either aligned that you don't get phase distortion that sounds like you just slammed a phaser on your chain or you aren't. I don't see the soul in applying the same effect on a transition. I don't see any parallel between that and the human inconsistencies which for many musicians were intentional and added to what they did. There are plenty of musicians that make mistakes we would just consider bad musicians. Train wrecking to me is like a drummer with bad timing. It is human but it isn't ever good.

I think a dj can be much more expressive and less of a jukebox. I don't think djs take advantage of this as much as they could because most djs focus on the production and djing is just the part where they get paid. If djs were hired on their djing ability, i think you would start seing alot more djs approaching it as a musician might but considering the dance scene is one of hype where your productions get your bookings to do something completely separate from production, things will not really change and the technology that allows one to do interesting thing is not being exploited.

The visual aspect i honestly can't defend. The motions one made with real turntables just looked better. And that counts when you are doing a live performance.

quote:

Originally posted by itsamemario that's not drifting, that's horrible dj work. I thought you meant minute changes in the phase gradually happening over several bars, which indeed is very pleasing. That just was a sub-par transition.

It used to be said that the skill of a DJ was the art of correction.

by who ?

it is a skill, i wouldn't say art, and it similar to say tuning a guitar. There is a guitar that is in tune, and then there is a guitar that is not in tune. Do you listen to a guitar line and say damn, that is nice tuning ? I suppose a guitarist might notice the intonation as tuning is actually a hard thing to do in a live setting as the design of the instrument has limitations making it never in tune for all chords and positions. But that is a technical observation.

I personally found beatmatching in the days of vinyl a prerequisite that was rather easy and something I would not expect anyone to find impressive. It is the minimum standard. Like someone playing a scale in tune. That isn't art , it isn't impressive. It is the bare minimum of what someone might consider competent and merely at a technical lavel.

But an actual fan of music ? Do these things register or matter other than getting in the way of the actual music. I doubt it. I think you also doubt it. Maybe i'm wrong

quote:

Originally posted by Jarvmeister It used to be said that the skill of a DJ was the art of correction.

Bullshit. The skill of a DJ is in not making the mistake in the first place. That statement is such nonsense omgwtf.

Re: I can't pretend that digital is more enjoyable... maybe I'm too old?!

quote:

Originally posted by Jarvmeister A robot can play a guitar clinically, perfectly - but it doesn't touch you. A human plays a guitar and it stirs your soul.

How can you not realise how absolutely bizarre it is to use that logic with electronic music? All those classic dance records you love have no "soul" because they weren't played by human hand, but programmed by sequencer. If people had your mentality thirty years ago, modern dance music would not exist.

Vinyl mixing had a thrill to it because it was hard. That much is undeniable. When you hear minor errors in a vinyl mix it's exhilirating because it makes you realise that the entire thing can go off the rails at any moment, and that makes the good transitions more exciting. That's very much an issue of performance though. Dance music, due to its creative methodology, lacked any kind of conventional performance, and the DJ stepped up to the plate and filled in the old-school ideas of technical skill and having someone on stage to look at.

Ultimately though, the ideal of electronic music is to remove manual skill from the equation to unlock unlimited creative potential.

part of what made electronic music so cool was that it had no soul. I mean you had the 70s, filled with soul and then you had this movement that was not human. And that was weird at the time and that made it unique and interesting.

I mean there are all types but not everything has to groove or have soul. I think when you intend to make a groovy track and it doesn't groove, then you have a problem, but when you aren't trying to sound human, well it was different and i don't think that made it bad.

I think part of what made djs so special back in the day was that it was mysterious. You didn't know what they were doing, and that made it special. And it was a huge cultural movement and being apart of those things adds to it. To be able to say, ya, i was at that party where so and so did so and so. It is historic and similar to say being able to see a great band when they were starting.

Don't forget, it's all subjective - that's the whole thing about music, what floats my boat doesn't necessarily float yours. I view one piece as melancholic, you view it as uplifting.

System J - have to say, I like what you're saying - especially with that exhilaration when you're willing that mix to 'work out', but disagree with the last bit about removing ALL the manual skill. In my ideal, you keep that skill in while still pushing the boundaries and potential of the technology - so you keep that uncertainty - retaining that satisfaction felt by both the performer and the audience. That was always part of the experience for me, when you and the DJ (or you and the crowd) felt that connection when a mix was nailed.

But remember, it's all subjective. My thread title suggests my enjoyment of the digital movement is affected by my age. I'm not saying one thing is right or wrong globally, I'm making comments on my own preferences.

manual mixing will always be the best and the most fun.

isn't all mixing manual ?

I personally find things that are musical in nature more fun to incorporate rather than technicalities that don't make a set better, only worse.

A laptop can't get you laid but it's way easier to do cocaine off of one.

That is clearly a live recorded vinyl mix.

It's next to impossible to play for 2 hours on vinyl and not drift and correct at least one or two times, no matter how good you are.

Vinyl is fun to play on, but it really does require more skill than CDJ's. Quite a bit more, actually. I always laugh at DJ's who are like "oh I know how to beatmatch, vinyl is so easy.". Maybe if you aren't a perfectionist it is...

quote:

Originally posted by itsamemario that's not drifting, that's horrible dj work. I thought you meant minute changes in the phase gradually happening over several bars, which indeed is very pleasing. That just was a sub-par transition.

then... don't dj digitally?


no one is forcing you to do anything

quote:

Originally posted by Ryan0751 That is clearly a live recorded vinyl mix. It's next to impossible to play for 2 hours on vinyl and not drift and correct at least one or two times, no matter how good you are. Vinyl is fun to play on, but it really does require more skill than CDJ's. Quite a bit more, actually. I always laugh at DJ's who are like "oh I know how to beatmatch, vinyl is so easy.". Maybe if you aren't a perfectionist it is...

That anyone would notice? It is. You will get phasing issues in digital as not everything is perfectly hard quantized to 16th notes.Digital and vinyl won't help you there. Unless you completely warp the track so it is no longer the same track.

You are constantly correcting because vinyl is not perfect despite how accurate theclock is. The record, slipmats and power source all mess with that .....but any seasoned dj that can ride the pitch fader will do it instantively.unless they are fucked up which is usually the case.

Most pros beat match without having to re cue. It really is that simple with a little practice. But a lot of djs never learned to beat match without having to rely on twisting the nipple or dragging the platter.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney That anyone would notice? It is. You will get phasing issues in digital as not everything is perfectly hard quantized to 16th notes.Digital and vinyl won't help you there. Unless you completely warp the track so it is no longer the same track. You are constantly correcting because vinyl is not perfect despite how accurate theclock is. The record, slipmats and power source all mess with that .....but any seasoned dj that can ride the pitch fader will do it instantively.unless they are fucked up which is usually the case. Most pros beat match without having to re cue. It really is that simple with a little practice. But a lot of djs never learned to beat match without having to rely on twisting the nipple or dragging the platter.

Oh I know, I learned to ride the pitch quite well.

Just go back and listen to some studio mixes from the 90's from the top DJ's... it's amazing what you can hear now that you DJ yourself

well that isn't quite fair because your ears are trained. To the average person at a party, not noticeable at all, in a mix , to most not noticeable. You really need to start creating a flange effect for people to go , wait that is weird. And live, you can stray pretty far and as long as the bass is not engaged on both, nobody will notice. Except for the 10 djs behind you.

i welcome the digital dis. they can be awesome when they dont need to worry about skipping and pitching - examply of this is speedy j, the most inovative dj at the moment. playing mp3/wav from usb on cdjs is the future imo. laptops arent cool enough and most people arent good at interacting with crowd when looking at the screen. soon the cdjs might be without a cd-slot all together. just bring your usbs to the party and your good.

quote:

Originally posted by Jarvmeister It used to be said that the skill of a DJ was the art of correction.

Yeah, but no dj with a shred of self-respect would bring in a track that wasn't matched up at least to the point where it wouldn't slide out a whole beat in less than 16 bars. IMO.

One cool thing though, when we're on the subject of 'drifting'.
Which actually has become simpler with more accurate bpm counters, but anyhoo.. Setting the pitch on the track you're bringing in to .01 bpm slower, or faster, depending on what type of groove you're creating, will often give the transition a highly sexy effect, as long as you keep your ear on that drift, more than a 16th off and it'll start sounding horrible. If done correctly it's a really smooth way to either go edgier/in your face, or to a more laidback feeling.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryan0751 That is clearly a live recorded vinyl mix. It's next to impossible to play for 2 hours on vinyl and not drift and correct at least one or two times, no matter how good you are. Vinyl is fun to play on, but it really does require more skill than CDJ's. Quite a bit more, actually. I always laugh at DJ's who are like "oh I know how to beatmatch, vinyl is so easy.". Maybe if you aren't a perfectionist it is...

speak for yourself. With enough practice and a good pair of direct drives you can keep 3 songs synced with records without breaking too much of a sweat. Its called experience. A guy like Danny Howells for instance can play 14 hours on vynil without making a single mistake. Like a coked up robot.

quote:

Originally posted by Dykes_on_Jay speak for yourself. With enough practice and a good pair of direct drives you can keep 3 songs synced with records without breaking too much of a sweat. Its called experience. A guy like Danny Howells for instance can play 14 hours on vynil without making a single mistake. Like a coked up robot.

No he can't. I lovvvve Danny, and have been listening to him for many years. I'm not exactly a youngin anymore. But he's not totally perfect. Nobody is. I'm not talking about train wrecks, just little slips that only a DJ would hear.

Find me an all vinyl mix for even 3 hours without one single slip... flawless beat on no flanging or beat phase cancellation, no perceptible place where you can tell the DJ corrected the mix on the fly. It's next to impossible even on CDJ's (live), on vinyl it's even harder.

Sorry I just strive for perfect.

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