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Golden Ratio in Music

I read that it is a theory in music (and in broader applications of art in general) that the climax of a piece of music should take place approximately 2/3 through.

I have noticed this in EDM currently, especially in popular house music. If the song is 6.30 minutes the climax might take place a 4.15 (or 2/3 through the piece). Whereas, I remember when I first started producing, a lot of the trance tracks I was using as references from around 2006-2010 had a climax about half-way through the song.

historically a trend.

And i disagree with current trends. Tracks now are much more commercially minded giving you the pay off sooner with less build. Instead of 1 , you get 2 which are pretty much acting like versus.

I guess (1 + sqrt(5))/2 is close enough to 3/2 for some purposes.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney historically a trend. And i disagree with current trends. Tracks now are much more commercially minded giving you the pay off sooner with less build. Instead of 1 , you get 2 which are pretty much acting like versus.

That is a good point. However, the second climax in my opinion should contain just a little more of a payoff. That second climax takes place about 2/3 the way through still. Also the buildup to the second climax is usually a little bigger.

I am honestly not trying to promote my track (it is a very rough draft). But it is a good example I think. The second climax at 4.22 adds a final new 'lead' which kind of puts it over the top and makes it one step above the previous one at 2.14. The Avicii track also demonstrates a bigger buildup to the second drop.

Caleb Golston - R4V3 (Original Mix) [Full Length Rough Draft] by CalebGolston

Climax is where it should be.

quote:

Originally posted by Subtle Climax is where it should be.

That doesn't really mean anything. It is pseudo-profound.

There are predictable reactions to certain things in the brain based on principles like the golden ratio. Playing a B, C and C sharp together at the same time on the piano are never going to sound good, no matter how much artistic license you are claiming to use.

there is no reason from a marketing and commercial perspective to have your peak at 2/3, you then basically have 1/3 of nothing.

If you've noticed pop, most of the structure can be described as <

Unless you are making electronic music without commercial application in mind. The dj is going to us the parts that are the good parts and that last 1/3 is rather pointless. You will notice most tracks now go from the main drop to basically 16 bars of outro.

The trend is to make tracks as short as possible. So that djs are no longer the target audience but actual real people. Not sure if this is something they are aware of but it is happening and it makes sense,

You will also notice with most intros, well it gets to the point pretty quick. Djs don't need to beat match anymore. They don't need those 32 bars at the beginning.

essentially you want your dance track to have verse which would be more rythm 1 main chorus , bridge, 1 bigger chorus , quick outro with a verse somewhere before or after the bridge. This is the way things are heading.

not saying this is what you should do. But form has changed drastically since djs have become less important.

I know what you are saying. I guess I am hesitant from a practical standpoint of making pop music when you can't really send it to anyone. You kind of need an audience already. Whereas with longer more underground tracks (but still popular forms of underground music) there are more clear ways to get started and move up and get noticed.

I think you should make what you feel.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney I think you should make what you feel.

Yep, agree with Rich - I don't really feel being restricted by any boundary but I guess is just me (too old for that )

Cheers

A couple of weeks ago I made a track I knew didn't have any commercial appeal. It was just 'streight from the heart' as you put it Darius. Man, it came together pretty effortlessly. It was a perfect reflection of what I was feeling.

quote:

Originally posted by Trancelover03591 A couple of weeks ago I made a track I knew didn't have any commercial appeal. It was just 'streight from the heart' as you put it Darius. Man, it came together pretty effortlessly. It was a perfect reflection of what I was feeling.

You said that this is coming straight from your heart -> and I can hear it big time man, it was just perfect time for calm reflection reevaluation.

Your best production so far by mile -> now you can see what you can do without those restrictions and controlling boundaries in your music, I will be always saying (and will always support of this concept) "Let the music flow, let it form itself naturally"

Cheers mate,

Darek

quote:

Originally posted by TranceLover007 You said that this is coming straight from your heart -> and I can hear it big time man, it was just perfect time for calm reflection reevaluation. Your best production so far by mile -> now you can see what you can do without those restrictions and controlling boundaries in your music, I will be always saying (and will always support of this concept) "Let the music flow, let it form itself naturally" Cheers mate, Darek

Thanks. It is a simple song so it was easier to mix well and such.

It originally started as a dubstep track. I think I will finish the dubstep version too.

quote:

Originally posted by Trancelover03591 Thanks. It is a simple song so it was easier to mix well and such. It originally started as a dubstep track. I think I will finish the dubstep version too.

Just don't force it too much - in music either you have it or you don't, either you feel it or you not !!!

This track is going right direction for now !!!


Cheers,

Darek

quote:

Originally posted by Trancelover03591 That is a good point. However, the second climax in my opinion should contain just a little more of a payoff. That second climax takes place about 2/3 the way through still. Also the buildup to the second climax is usually a little bigger. I am honestly not trying to promote my track (it is a very rough draft). But it is a good example I think. The second climax at 4.22 adds a final new 'lead' which kind of puts it over the top and makes it one step above the previous one at 2.14. The Avicii track also demonstrates a bigger buildup to the second drop.

Totally agree 100%.

For commercial music you can do:

Verse - Chorus - Verse - Chorus - Bridge - Chorus

The bridge can have the highest energy, with the chorus having the 2nd most, and the verses the least.

Or the last chorus is beefed up:



As far as personal listening is concerned, once I hit the climax of the song I am done with it. Next song please!

A lot of the new tarnce peaks way too quickly.



I love that older style gear shift when the breakdown goes into the chorus:

Fucking lol.

props to you Alfi - you managed to explain that with possibly the worst/funniest selection of examples I have ever seen. Well played, sir.

i prefer the older forms that were more elaborate. What i stated was just how things are going. EDM for people with ADD or pop music.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney i prefer the older forms that were more elaborate.

Example or two? No Scot Project Plz. :P

not fair not to mention scot project. That was his thing.

I have used this track as an example for various things on this forum before. It is just about my favorite 'modern' trance song. Though, in this context, it is an illustration of an older style structure I allude to earlier in the thread, when trance tracks were well over 9 minutes long, with climaxes halfway (rather than 2/3) thru the track.

The climax is roughly half-way through at 5.11 on a track over 9 minutes long. The breakdown is nearly 2 full minutes.




oh yeah, just for fun SCOT PROJECT did a remix of it too:

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux Totally agree 100%. For commercial music you can do: Verse - Chorus - Verse - Chorus - Bridge - Chorus The bridge can have the highest energy, with the chorus having the 2nd most, and the verses the least. Or the last chorus is beefed up: As far as personal listening is concerned, once I hit the climax of the song I am done with it. Next song please! A lot of the new tarnce peaks way too quickly. I love that older style gear shift when the breakdown goes into the chorus:

Thanks for the analysis. I know the riff of the LMFAO song but I didn't know that song clocked in at over 6 minutes. I kind of like the Sash! style of trance :P

The vinyl of this track also has an interesting pattern in its grooves.

quote:

not fair not to mention scot project. That was his thing.

quote:

Originally posted by farris The vinyl of this track also has an interesting pattern in its grooves.

Modern day equivalent of looking at the record grooves is looking at the waveform.

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