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Music as art vs. music as a product

So I've noticed that in general, criticizing music these days is mostly frowned upon. Typical rebuttals seem to be anything from "you don't make music so you can't be critical of other people's work" to "just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can have a negative opinion about it".

But my question is, considering that music is essentially a product, and has a price, doesn't that entitle people, as consumers, to have any opinion they like? Does someone who defend an artist/release they like against critical remarks have a right to do so any more than the person making those remarks? Is it really reasonable for an artist to attack someone for being critical of their work? After all, they put it out there as a product, regardless of whether or not it's considered art or a labor of love or anything else. Aren't people (us), as consumers, entitled to express our opinions about music - regardless if it's positive or negative, without the fear of backlash or the need to defend ourselves?

Thoughts?

People are pussies today. So many imitators and not enough innovators that everyone gets their panties in a bunch. Not having to invest a nickel into music production, distribution has led to a generation of self entitled know nothings, do nothings, yet they believe that they are better than anything else.

It started in the 80's when teachers started telling kids that they could be whatever they want so long as they tried...which is utter bullshit. The kids believed it, and later generations took the idea to the extreme. Generation attitude has little substance. The education system is to blame.

Everyone wants to be a star. Tell them that they can't and they act the wounded animal part.

Not too sure who specifically you are referring to there but I see your point. Anyway I also wanted to add that I've realized lately that everyone has an opinion and it's just stupid to attack other people for their opinion. It's ok to challenge other people's opinion, for the sake of discussion, but to attack is pointless. This thought has mostly come about from seeing people criticize reviews on music and video game sites I visit. A reviewer is not an authority, so their review is really just one person's opinion. Everyone has one, just like an ass hole, as they say...

Re: Music as art vs. music as a product

This part:

quote:

Originally posted by Adam420 Aren't people (us), as consumers, entitled to express our opinions about music - regardless if it's positive or negative, without the fear of backlash or the need to defend ourselves?

is exactly the same as this part:

quote:

So I've noticed that in general, criticizing music these days is mostly frowned upon. Typical rebuttals seem to be anything from "you don't make music so you can't be critical of other people's work" to "just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can have a negative opinion about it".

The justification that you gave, music being a consumer product, produces both attitudes. Conversation is feared. What is allowable is idle chatter about what you like or don't like, but taking a position that challenges another is de facto taken as a violation of the right to consume freely.

It's not surprising that most brilliant aesthetic pushes by new talent are engendered by apathy. If you care only about what you produce or what you listen, stubbornness will give you the freedom to do so. But you'll never be able to talk about it beyond inanities.

Doesn't the notion of a community conflict with the notion of an industry if the ones making the product are part of that community?

The internet generation means that everyone has a voice, compared to 20 years ago where a review would just be done by a journalist in a printed medium/radio/tv.

The internet/software generation also means that anyone can make something. Good or shit. Thousands of people creating (with a miniscule fraction being decent) vs millions of voices.

People need to take criticism with a grain of salt. Constructive criticism is a great tool for improvement. At the same time, many of these "voices" have little or no clue what they are complaining about and are just exercising the ability to shit on something/praise something.

Producers need to look hard at their work, and realize that one lazy flop will ruin them. They need to hold back, and wait until they are certain that they have achieved what they really intend of showing the world vs just putting out the first thing that they felt is done. Done =/= good. How many clipping tracks are there on Beatport? Ones that sound like they were made by someone with 2 weeks experience? Releasing a track these days is easier than finding a mate (hint:it isn't hard to find a woman).

This is a reason why I am a firm supporter of vinyl. While there are tons of horrible records, you have to respect someone who puts their money where their mouth is vs someone that hits render and creates a label that will get lost in the sea of shit.

I'm not referring to anyone in particular. I'm sick in bed, drinking heavily, and ranting because the world ends for me in 9 hours.

It's irrelevant. Anyone who attacks the very act of criticism itself, rather than the content of that criticism, is is a cretinous fuckwad from the moment they open their mouth or bash their keyboard. There is no "right" or "entitlement" needed to criticise. The only validation a criticism needs is found in its own content.

Your post is shit Jack!

Re: Music as art vs. music as a product

From Blackdown's interview with FaltyDL (http://blackdownsoundboy.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=mike):

quote:

F: Also, it should be noted that for me, making an album with Mike Paradinas can sometimes involve a lot of contact, and sometimes a simple 1 line response email "This is shit". That can be rough... although it does push me to make better music. That is where I think I lose it to be honest. I get pissed off at myself and at Mike. Ha. B: Wow, I'm pretty hands on at Keysound, in fact I've helped mix and arrange several recent releases, but I've never said 'this is shit'� wow. F: Haha, yeah he can be brutally honest in his opinion. I usually just call him and say "No it isn't." F: He says OK, why do you think so and sometimes it stays on the release. Tough love. Really. But there is love. I don't need there to be that from a label, but it is nice knowing how much Mike does care. In his own strange way.

If people dodge and dismiss constructive criticism the way you describe here, you are most likely talking to people who are more concerned with their business and marketing efforts than the music they are releasing. It is also likely that they never had to deal with criticism in their lives due to constantly being surrounded by yes men and rabid fanbases. If this is such a problem for you, I'd suggest not supporting them, and giving your time and money to someone who is actually interested in improving on the basis of the feedback he or she gets instead.

it is art when you are doing it for the joy.

it is a product when you are doing it for the cash - but only if you are compromising the music itself or your integrity...

i gotta ask myself, are ferry corsten and tiesto really enjoying themselves any more?

cause the cheap wooden gash that they are knocking out goes against what they used to stand for. music that energises the soul. their new material makes my spirit shudder in disappointment.

quote:

Originally posted by rubez ferry corsten and tiesto

shit post.

If someone releases something, they should expect at least some negative reviews. I don't really get the whole point of the original post. If someone makes music for popularity or money and they make the most awful music of all time then sure, maybe they should stop making music.

If someone makes music for the simple act of creation and no one else likes it (and they're ok with that) then I don't really see the problem no matter what anyone else thinks of their music.

I CAN HAZ OPINYON?

The thing is with normal consumer products reviewing and criticising is more straightforward, as you can simply judge it on how well it does what it's supposed to do.
Art doesn't have a clear-cut purpose and is often meant to be provocative, making it a very polarizing thing by nature. This drives reviewers further towards the realm of opinion, but that still clashes with the influential status they tend to have. People put their trust in them, and may choose not to listen to something because of this which frustrates producers, especially if they do a rather lazy job. As you can tell from the this topic in the production forum: http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...=2#.UNMw16y8HXQ

Re: I CAN HAZ OPINYON?

quote:

Originally posted by PivotTechno

Lololol any support to the criticism would have to face with this.

Well i think if you consider music a product you have to "use it" i mean you can criticize a single track if you have listened to that track in its entire duration.

You can criticize an artist not by judging a single track you find shit but several more, his livesets etc...

There is also good criticism and bad criticism, thinks like the image above simply are laughable if people start criticising someone with arguments like this... this is an obvious fail but you can have several misconceptions from people like the statement "Avicii does shit techno music".

I'd like to quote AvB here "DOn't tell me this is shit, tell me this is shit because..." this is my point of view, people that say this is shit i completely ignore them, i ignore them too if they clearly haven't done an effort to value the "product" completely like judging a track only after listening the 1st minute.

If they said "1st minute is shit because has no structure, sounds are piercing..." i'd take them seriously on the contrary.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J It's irrelevant. Anyone who attacks the very act of criticism itself, rather than the content of that criticism, is is a cretinous fuckwad from the moment they open their mouth or bash their keyboard. There is no "right" or "entitlement" needed to criticise. The only validation a criticism needs is found in its own content.

Exactly! Good criticism has very little to do with the supposed qualifications of the writer and much more to do with the content of the actual criticism. Good criticism is akin to a piece of music or literature or cinema etc. in that the very best of it isnt just a simple piece of opinion but a coherent and thoughtful stand alone piece that seeks to go beyond simply reviewing something to actually developing a new way of looking at something, and by extension a new way of looking at the world. Best analogy i can give, is that the best pieces of criticism I know of, are sometimes written on works of art that I have actually never read or seen, yet I still get something powerful out of it.

Example 1: Mimesis

Example 2: The Tracking Shot in Kapo

Obviously, you cant read the former without getting the book, but anyone can read that essay by the late great Serge Daney. Honestly, it might be a little hard to understand unless you are a hard core cinephile as some of the underlying assumptions are based on the developments of the new wave in france and a culture of cinephilia that usually doesnt even get taught in most graduate film programs.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam420 Doesn't the notion of a community conflict with the notion of an industry if the ones making the product are part of that community?

I don't quite understand you. What kind of conflict are you talking about? Any community is always founded on some kind of economic order.

quote:

Originally posted by frupertery I don't quite understand you. What kind of conflict are you talking about? Any community is always founded on some kind of economic order.

So what's the economic order of tranceaddict then?

quote:

Originally posted by Psyshell So what's the economic order of tranceaddict then?

you're poor and no one likes you.

Re: Music as art vs. music as a product

quote:

Originally posted by Adam420 But my question is, considering that music is essentially a product, and has a price, doesn't that entitle people, as consumers, to have any opinion they like?

Yes.

quote:

Does someone who defend an artist/release they like against critical remarks have a right to do so any more than the person making those remarks?

Yes.

quote:

Is it really reasonable for an artist to attack someone for being critical of their work?

No.

quote:

Aren't people (us), as consumers, entitled to express our opinions about music - regardless if it's positive or negative, without the fear of backlash or the need to defend ourselves?

Yes and no. If you have strong opinions about something, you should also be able to clarify and elaborate upon them. It's easy to say you don't like something just because you don't like it, and to me that isn't fair criticism.

quote:

Thoughts?

It's a complicated subject. As listeners, some of us being artists of our own, we generally have a feel for the amount of care and passion that goes into the music we listen to. So when you're being critical of it I think it's important to be aware of the work and effort. However, none of it should be excused from scrutiny and criticism. All art should be subjected to criticism, and has been for the most part. It should continue that way. I think criticism should be reasonable and proportionate, though.

My impression is, that part of the job of being an artist is being able to tell what type of reviewer each reviewer is when they're reviewing your work. Some people will hate everything, and it's really nothing to do with your work but it's actually them.

Likewise, some people will only say positive things, or will merely attempt to find the best thing about it to avoid saying anything negative. Or there's many other "reviewer types". As an artist they have to be able to get a balanced view of the quality of their work (and where it needs improvement) by balancing the views of different types of people. It also needs to be said that honestly, it doesn't matter how many haters you have, if all you want is some people to like it and some people do then not much else matters.

Well, maybe not totally on topic, however..

Most artists never get a chance to release cos there are so many who create music these days.
So they go to places where people like their kind of music to see if they find folks like them.
So why knock such a dudes feet away and get him-her down.
If you don't like it just don't reply ,no one forced you to listen to it ,was free choice.

Critical comments they might even find educating.
But why be obvious in trying to hurt a person by insulting his skills.
There is a difference between criticism and trolling

Trolling is saying 21-12 doomsday live will end
Criticism is saying we get bad weather but we'll find a way to survive hahaha


On Economics ,Musicians have to.
I hate the maximizer war that has broken out last years.
Still like my unmaximized songs more.
But everyone else is making maximized songs
So if you don't then you wont hear back your song if you mix it with another.
Thus we musicians are forced to walk the same step and go along
Else no dj will be able to mix our music into other commercial music

quote:

Originally posted by Trance-MB Well, maybe not totally on topic, however..

meh who cares
most people don't 'like' shit on facebook because they find it to be culutarally significant. people 'like' shit that they think is entertaining. djs that post pictures of cats are capable of entertaining ppl.
by 'liking' a fbook page you aren't singing a contract saying 'i shall support...'. instead, you're just expressing some support at the time being.

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