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America's part in WW2

Now i have seen a lot of things said on this subject, an di hope me can have an adult discussion on it

This is not a direct attack on america, and nor is it an attempt at being racist, or woteva u feel, which would leed u to flame me

Now, my problem is that a lot of people are miss informed

America mainly helped troops wise in the war. As we had most of the intelligence, with secret opperations like at bletchley park, and the enigma machine

English secrets have been kept for many years and it is only now coming to light wot really went on

America was involved in a knowledge sharign exercise with the english, in which we beleived they woudl share their advances in technology as we shared ours

For example the english were the first to design the basis of the first jet plane, using the unique rear wing system, which men the plane could be stable, and reach hi speeds without breaking up

We gave the information to the maericans, beleive we would recieve information back, we beign the british

However no information was recieved, and america went on to say they were the first to invent the jet plane - fact and this is false

Next up id the issue of america involvement, we area all pleased america got involved, as without them the war woudl have dragged on for a lot longer.

But if u stufy the war especially in france american troops made great advances into the nazi line, but this was only down to british intelligence, decoding messages usign the enigma machine - fact

So i was just wondering wot you beleived, can we please stick to fact

Do you think that america has miss lead its people, or do you think that they are wrong to steel secret information, and abuse countries trusts?

Or do you think america did play a large part in WW2, and if it wasnt for them, we woudl now be under nazi rule???

Im interested to see both sides of the story, and also infromation that others have read, or picked up

Most of my information is not 100% accurate, but is based on fact, acquired from tv, books, etc

So please discuss

Unfortunatly this may turn into a flame war. Some people cant be mature i guess

But i will ahnd it over to you

All I know is that Canada's role in the war was way overlooked.

Canadians freed Holland

So no complaining about them

It were actually the German who made most WW2 inventions, like the V2 rocket which led to the space program (Werner von Braun)

As far as the jets being invented by Americans thats not what they teach us in school. But the more important issue, of America getting deep into Nazi territory, does it really matter were you get your information from concerning placement of nazi troops? No. Because the British troops were all over the place, and the americans wernt. And they both wanted the same result. As far as sharing advanced technology outside of the nuclear bombs, which were pretty classified i think, we didnt have any advanced technology.

quote:

Originally posted by Vanilla All I know is that Canada's role in the war was way overlooked.

yes...rather.

also fly: maybe you would like to go edit your post for spelling and the like. just a suggestion. this thread trying to be serious should at least have a professional looking first post. just my opinion mind you, dosent really matter. im probably just pissed because i've dealt with people on the phone all day who cant speak their own language correctly.

but i digress... america helped a lot. not so much in intelligence gathering or anything like that. but their role is no less significant. the manpower and logistical help provided allowed the war to be over and done with much quicker and therefore with fewer casualities.

and that my friends is the end of my post

Re: America's part in WW2

quote:

Originally posted by flystyler But if u stufy the war especially in france american troops made great advances into the nazi line, but this was only down to british intelligence, decoding messages usign the enigma machine - fact

I know that Canada made the bigget advances into France during the first few days of D-Day, followed closely by the British.

Also, the Americans took out a major German ally, the Japanese. People will say that they went overboard with the Nukes...but come on...there you are, minding your own damn business and the next thing you know, a major port has been completely levelled.

So in essence, the USA got into the war cause the Japanese attacked them; without warning, or anything.

And did you know that the Manhattan Project was a joint effort between the Canadians and Americans?

K, 6 posts so far, and no bashing yet. *holds breath*

Re: America's part in WW2

quote:

Originally posted by flystyler Next up id the issue of america involvement, we area all pleased america got involved, as without them the war woudl have dragged on for a lot longer.

If America hadn't got involved, Germany probably would have developed nuclear capabilities before the war ended. And that would have been a very, very bad thing.

Cheers,

Arbiter

Re: Re: America's part in WW2

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter If America hadn't got involved, Germany probably would have developed nuclear capabilities before the war ended. And that would have been a very, very bad thing. Cheers, Arbiter

Ummmmm partly true, the Germans were going to create nuclear weapons (that is why the manhatten project had first started up) however, they had no time as they were losing the war and figured, we'll go with what works and went ahead to develop the V2 rocket (faster, more effective timewise etc). So when Germany was fully invaded the Americans (and everyone else) found out that there really was no atomic bomb finished at least, there were just plans to make one, but those fell through (see above point). So all of their plans of building the a bomb before the Germans had succeeded and they figured (paraphrasing here) "We have spent millions of taxdollars on this thing, a LOT of time and research so we'll use it...on Japan (after all they did level an entire port of ours...plus it will end up saving lives" (Ya right) Look into reading the "Franck Report" I think it's called, gives reasons for not to drop the bomb during a debate that happened.
That's what I know on the subject...took a course on Einstein and the humanities (talked about ww2 and the a bomb etc...
)

yes, well...

im not gonna bash, but this thread has NO WAY of ending peacefully and I think that fly prolly knew that beforehand(not a bash-just unconciously maybe). but neways...

yeah the british had a good deal of tech, but would it have lasted very long without US involvement? even if this was 'just manpower' or troops?

and im not a historian, and dont pretend to be, but there are 3 significant events that pull the whole picture together:

1: The Monroe Doctrine- was an isolationist piece of writing before WWI. We DID get dragged into that conflict.

2: The sinking of a ship or various ships in the North Sea BEFORE Pearl Harbor. The most famous was the Andrea Doria, i believe, but am prolly wrong. And while these werent war ships, they were ALREADY providing aid to the Allies(even tho we werent supposed to be).

3: And Pearl Harbor. This one is self explainatory.

the shitty thing tho is that the US Rev was the first really Nationalist Rev/War in its time, and while this has little if anything to do with WWII, its gonna mean a WHOLE LOTTA NATIONALISM will insue here, making an attempted 'debate' here unlikely.


but please. continue in peace|

As I've said on here before, I think the amount America influenced the war was signicant, but has been largely overblown as time has gone by.

On the atom bomb thing:

The Germans were initially working on the atomic bomb, and they had one of the best physicists in the world, Heisenberg working on it. The program failed long before the war ended though because Heisenberg made a critical miscalculation and thought that he needed an obscene amount of Uranium to attain critical mass, and complete the bomb. So much uranium in fact that the Nazis couldn't hope to collect it given 10 years, let alone mere months, so the pursuit of the bomb was scrapped.

agree with biznology ....

In that it's not likely that this thread will end peaceably ... but one can only hope hehe. Anyway It's impossible to say whether the US or the British could have done it alone. The two were so linked with each other that it would be impossible to envision the war effort without the other. Without the lend-lease program and American convoys to supply Britain with food and weapons, Britain would have surely capitulated early on in the war. Plus the amount of men, equipment, and industrial capacity that America was able to direct towards the war effort was unmatchable by Britain and Germany.

However, the British developed the enigma code breaker. Undoubtly a huge intelligence asset. What's an even lesser known fact is that Britain invented Radar which was copied by the Americans and the impact of Radar is not given enough credit. The Americans spent $2 billion developing atomic weapons ... however they spent $3 billion developing radar. I'm sure there are a bunch of war contributions that I'm missing but the point remains the same ... it's pointless to argue about the issue since both countries made HUGE, IMEASURABLE impacts on winning the war.

If there should be any debate it should be about how, with most of us coming from western nations, we have ALL been biased against the contributions that Russia made towards the war effort. The US lost almost 400,000 men. I don't know about Britain. Russia lost 20 MILLION people (and that's a conservative estimate too). Think the western front was bad? The Germans had 2 to 3 times as many divisions on the Eastern front. AND Russia faced the ENTIRE German army in land combat for 3 YEARS more than the allies had. One tough nut to crack huh? But I guess if you think about it ... the Germans were the toughest of us all.

I'm really liking this thread and I think it can happen without
flaming. First of all Canadian troops were an important part in WW2 and it is well known that the allied commanders gave them the dirtiest and hardest assignments(most likely thinking that we're just canadians, nodbody cares about us) that had some of the highest casualty rates. Second of all I agree that some american films make it seem like they won the war on their own. I'm pretty sure thats not true if you were to look at battle stats as to which country killed the most germans and destroyed the majority of their machinery. I'm thinking russia would be on the top of that list. But, the americans did send millions of tons of supplies to both the british and russians. I believe that Britain wouldn't have been able to fight for as long as they did without american supplies. As for all the advances that the british shared with the americans, I'll bet you that it wasn't just british scientist involved, I'll bet you a good part of them were french, dutch, etc, etc. So far thats all I have to say. Keep this thread going

I agree ... I'm really liking this thread too. Hopefully it can last a while without idiots spouting ignorant rhetoric. I agree with drunkpolak that a lot of american films are very pro-american (U-571 stating that america broke the enigma code). What would be interesting would be to see what contribution each country made with regards to its population and its economy. Even though I'm American, I would consider my education very European (I grew up in Belgium and Austria doing the whole IB diploma thing), but I never learned much about the canadian or any other country's contribution besides Britain, Russia, and America. I do know that the Americans experienced some of the toughest battles on D-day ... Omaha for instance. In general, I think that the European front was a very joint effort, with the Russians making the most sacrifices and contributions.

However, in the Pacific, America was essentially fighting Japan alone (Don't flame me if you're australian i never learned about their role!). The amount of materiale that the US produced to fight Japan was ridiculous. By 1945 there were something like over 50 fast attack carriers alone. That doesn't even cover escort ships and fleet carriers. A lot of people critisize the US for using nuclear weapons against Japan but after so many losses in Europe and after fighting a 2 front war against Germany and Japan what are the alternatives? When countries engage in total war they use EVERY military asset in their arsenal and direct the ENTIRE economy towards the war effort. You don't think Britain, Russia, Germany, or Japan would have used nuclear weapons if they had them at their disposal? Even to save the lives of millions of their citizens?

Btw ... lets keep things civil!


Oh yea ... in terms of scientific contribution, oddly enough the majority of scientists on the manhattan project were Germans. Haha go figure. Oh and flystyler ... the first jet airplanes were created by the Germans. Read up on the Me-262 and the Me-169 I believe. BOTH the British and the Americans stole the technology from the Germans.

my dads parents sweet shoppe was bombed by the germans
he still hates germany.

I told him I was going to Germany for the love parade, he told me I shouldnt cuz they might bomb the sweet shoppe.

quote:

Originally posted by cycloptor yes...rather. also fly: maybe you would like to go edit your post for spelling and the like.

I wrote it at 1am in the morning, prob explains a lot

Just to add a small but significant point, none of the Allies broke the Enigma code, British Intelligence and it's network in Germany stole and brought back to England one of the Enigma machines along with all the documentation on how to use it.
Having this machine played a huge role in WWII, having access to that machine meant we knew where they were gonna strike, where all their naval fleets were, air defence etc and we had that for over a year in the later half of WWII.
That Machine protected American and British shipping in the Atlantic and told our fleets where the German ships would be.

One of the German's biggest weakness's was themselves during the latter part of the War too, a case of overconfidence, Hitlers superstitious belifs and reliance on clairvoyants, just before 'D' Day and the normandy landings Rommell decided that there would be no invasion from the allies on one thing, the weather !
So He went home to his wife in Berlin and 12 hours later the Allied invasion has begun.

America's involvment in WWII began a long time before they 'officially' was involved, they were supplying machinery and food to Britain and taking in 'evacuees' from Britain, a lot of children from London and the home counties were evacuated to America along with their mothers.

Also if America had not been involved in WWII we would not all be under Nazi or German rule, it would have just taken a good few more years to win WWII, America's involvment brought the war to an end significantly quicker than it would otherwise have done.

And we can not forgot the Russian involvment in this, the Russians had more losses than the rest of the allies combined, another one of Hitlers mistakes was to try to invade russia, the german forces were ill equipped and spread too thin to attempt an invasion of Russia in Mid Winter, the russian tanks were also better suited to the conditions, be it that they were smaller and less powerful than the german tanks, they were however easier to manufacture, quicker on the move and the sheer numbers of them.
it was in fact Russian troops that were the 1st in to Berlin.
Canada and Austrialia too had huge huge involvement in WWII.
Austrailian troops being involved on two fronts, with Japan and with Italy.
Another helping factor was the French Underground resistance whom gathered intelligence of german troop movements within France, helped allied prisoners of war escape, destroyed key german intelligence lines and generally made as much havoc as they could for germany.

so IMO, it took all of that to win WWII, co-operation between many countries including some not mentioned like Africa, the conflict in Africa was just as big as it was elsewhere, each country involved played a significant part in WWII.
Without these combined efforts Europe could be totally different to what it is today, i dont think it would be nazi rule even if Germany and Italy had been the victors because the German ppl and high ranking officers in the german army were just as pissed with Hitler as the rest of the world. Hitler may have won the war but his rule over Europe would have been shortlived.
A lot of the german public knew nothing about hitlers 'cleansing' program and those that did were appalled by it but were so scared by what could happen to them if they spoke out about it, but again if Hitler had won, the underground movements would soon have taken him out.

And to think i was only going to make a small post here, lol, but this whole subject has taken many years and many many lives to unfold and even now we are still learning new facts from what happened over 50 years ago.
You have to look at the bigger picture, the issue here should not be did America win WWII for the rest of us, that is simply not the case, it took the combined efforts of many nations and the loss of many many lives to defeat Hitler. and instead of argueing over who played the biggest role, we should in fact just remember and be thankful to all those that died in WWII who fought for us in the attempt of making our futures better.

I do believe america had a big part during WWII, however my props goes to russia, cox if they would had surrendred, germany would have 3 times as many troops concentrated on the front at GB, and i think they could take england then.

Plus you must remember denmark were liberated by the allied and soviet union, the allied liberated "main" denmark, and when we celibrated we some how forgot about the german troops on bornholm, who would only surrender to allied forces, being to busy celebrating the allied didn't send troops to bornholm, so the soviet union invaded bornholm and liberated it.

I think your right about canada... haven't heard anything about them during WWII, and my first thought was "they were in the war??" no disrespect, you never hear about them.

*edit*

Some stats from WWII in denmark

Re: Re: America's part in WW2

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter If America hadn't got involved, Germany probably would have developed nuclear capabilities before the war ended. And that would have been a very, very bad thing.

if Hitler werent so racist, he would have realised that Jews also make just as good a scientists as any other people, and would have gotten to Einstein first. But.. fortunately America got to him first instead, thus america got the atom bomb first

The two decisive battles of the European war were Stalingrad in late 1942 and Kursk in mid 1943. Both major battles fought in Russia. After Stalingrad, Germany had no hope of winning and this was accepted by the realists in the German military but who had no choice other than to fight to the bitter end.

This isnt to underrate the effect of american supplies to the Soviet Union via the convoys in the North Atlantic or the bombing campaign of German Industry by allied bombers. The Soviet Union would have beaten the Germans without foreign assistance, it just would have cost more lives and taken longer.

Turning to the Japanese, they were a paper tiger that bit off more than they could chew. The americans used Pearl Harbour as a pretext to enter the war against Germany, Japan was never a serious danger to american interests, whereas Germany was

quote:

Originally posted by rupert Turning to the Japanese, they were a paper tiger that bit off more than they could chew. The americans used Pearl Harbour as a pretext to enter the war against Germany, Japan was never a serious danger to american interests, whereas Germany was

True Roosevelt had wanted to enter the war with Britain against Germany and Pearl Harbor was his opportunity to do so but you can't say that Japan was never a threat to America. If the battle of Midway or Leytte Gulf had gone the other way Japan would have gained domination over shipping lanes ... clearing a way towards Hawaii.

WOW

I'm really happy to read this thread. I started reading it and I thought. Oh shit, here we go, another American bashing thread with ignorant views on WW2. Well it turns out that people really do know their history. Here are just a couple of additional facts for you to ponder:

1. The US helped the alies before their army involvment by sending fuel, supplies, food, and weapons.

2. The US sent many thousands of weapons (airplanes/tanks/guns) to Russia on a loan program (which Russia has still not repaid till today).

3. The Germans invented the jet aircraft. I don't think any American's have ever claimed to be the the first at it.

4. The firebombing raids on Japan by American B-29's killed more people then the atomic bombs did.

5. The bombing at Pearl Harbor destroyed America's entire West coast fleet except for a few aircraft carriers.

6. Russia was getting it's ass kicked until the winter saved them

7. The British held their own in the battle of Britain.

Re: WOW

quote:

Originally posted by FuzzyGreen 5. The bombing at Pearl Harbor destroyed America's entire West coast fleet except for a few aircraft carriers.

I saw a program on discovery, were they said the attack on pearl harbour was nothing but a big suprice for USA and within week the fleet was back in full force, maybe there wrong or i remember it wrong, but i know it takes a little more then a few weeks to rebuild ships.

So the entire west coast fleet couldn't have been destroyed if thats true.

just a wee point to add:
If it wasnt for the war our technology would be know where near as good as it is this now.

A lot of ppl think that america done so much because of all the movies about americas part.

Americans getting the Enigma code book was totally shit, it was the british and when they took over the German boat/ sub the germans in all the confusion thought the book was already destroyed and thats y the germans never changed it.


just out of interest do the countries that lost the war have a lot of war movies?

(In no way did i mean to affect or piss anyone off when writting this)

Good thread, and good to see people conducting themselves correctly.

America did make a big impact in the Second World War, supply wise and beefing up the Allies with a lot of extra manpower.

The Bloke who said it was just the USA and Aussies in Asia, the British fought in Asia, in Burma and other parts of South East Asia, reason they didn't get involved in the South Pacific islands was they expected the Japanese were planning to invade India, and once in India they would of had control over the Indian Ocean and a lot of British Colonies in Africa to invade, this prediction was right as the Japanese attempted to assualt Eastern India but were beaten back.

The British invented and mastered Special forces and Covert Operations in World War 2, Units like the SAS (Special Air Service) were in action in France, Italy, Norway, all over Eastern Europe, and North Africa, inflicting lighting raids and attacks, on high priorty targets inflicting terrible casulties on enemy, in one mission in North Africa alone Paddy Mane (Irish SAS officer) killed 17 german soldiers with his knife before the enemy even noticed soldiers were dissapearing. Not only was there the SAS, there was the SBS, Royal Marine Commando's, and Paratroopers (Red Berrets) the later of the two trained the frist recruits for what would be the American 82nd Airborne. There was a good programme I saw once it had all about it on it.

Before DDay aswell the Allies knew they were outnumbered in North Western France let alone the rest of the country. So a group of British officers the London Commitee or board they were called created fake information to fool the Nazi's. This included names of fake armys that didn't even exist, with names of real Generals incharge, transmissions of fake orders via radio's, fake training excercises all of which Nazi Spys in the UK and the USA would report back to the Nazi's, these included major invasions happening in certain areas of Europe, so the Germans would beef up security moving divisions away from the actual spots the Allies planned to attack, this was all done via the media aswell who printed newspaper articles which were complete bullshit about some 21st Army planning to attack Norway, and so on.

I think every country played their part in World War 2, everyone lost people, no ones part stoud out better then anyone elses it was a joint effort.

I was just thinking, a lot of people complain that the
american movies make it seem like they won the war on
their own. It is very rare for a movie to show exactly
what happened and all the players involved. So the
americans make a movie that will be seen by mostly
USA citizens, what so wrong about them making it seem like
they were the key players. I havn't seen any
Russian movies involving WW2 but I'm pretty sure they
don't mention anything about the bristish, americans, or
the french. I've seen a few british movies involving WW2
on the history network and from what i remember they barely
mentioned the americans or russians. The same could probably
be said for German movies, I'm pretty sure they don't mention
shit about their italian or romanian allies. Take that into
consideration when you complain about americans taking all
the credit. If anyone can tell me of a european movie that
goes against what I said I would love to know b/c that would
be a real good WW2 movie and I would love to see it.

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