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Pioneer's DJ & AV Department Unprofitable... 900 To Be Laid Off

OUCH! This does not look good for those who use Pioneer Equipment. They want to spin off their DJ department.

http://www.twice.com/articletype/fi...-spinoff/105016

Awsome.

Don't price gouge in an evolving market. Too bad, so sad. Own nothing Pioneer anymore.

just sent back a DJM 700. didn't like it. also their customer service has got to be the actual worst ever.

gonna do up my xone 92. new lines faders, new faceplate and an innofader.

wont be buying anything pioneer again.

^ goodjob

That's not exactly what the article said...

It said the Pioneer Home A/V market, which currently also includes the DJ business and optical drives, would potentially be spun off.

It's all one business unit. I doubt the DJ portion is "unprofitable", they are the market leader!

I can certainly see their home A/V division being difficult to run these days... Lets face it, most people aren't buying nice A/V systems like that used to. They want an $80 sound bar to go with their cheap OEM LCD TV.

Well it does speak to the state of the AV market as a whole.

I know a lot of pro/home AV installers and now they now only make money off labour, not a dime off equipment.

They used to buy flatscreen TV's off the manufacturers direct, or 3rd part distributors, and now it's cheaper for the end user to buy them online or the installer to go to best buy.

People aren't buying expensive name brand hifis etc - it's either cheap (but decent) major brand offerings or super expensive small boutique brands.

It really doesn't make sense though my they wouldn't split the DJ division away from AV as a whole. Sure they have sold a ton of equipment for DJ's but they may be the victim of their own poison. They tried to price everyone out of the market, while endlessly pushing "new" products that were minor variations of existing models, just to try to drown out the competition who were making better made equipment but bringing less new models or changes tot he market (vestax, A&H, Rane etc).

It may simply be a case of market saturation - they realize the DJ market is as big as it's going to get and they have burned their bridges in respects. I certainly decided never buy a pioneer mixer ever since I realized how damn shit the DJM500 was - the emphasis was on new gimmicky toys, not quality, and that was the tacky shape of things to come from them. CDJ's great, they kill it, but never a mixer.

And even though they probably sell tons of DJ equipment, the amount of money they spend on marketing is obscene. Expensive dedicated microsites, events, DJ sponsorship (Well over 100 dj's gloablly) etc. Must cost a fortune.

I agree with all of the.

I actually bought a DJM-900 because I needed a mixer other than my Rane. I have to say, it's actually pretty nice. And clearly WAY better than the 500/600.

Still, for the $1800 I spent on it I could have gotten an A&H. But really half the reason I got the DJM was that it's ALWAYS easy to resell for a high price.

I wonder what the margins are on the gear. Clearly they don't move THAT many units compared to other consumer products, but they must make quite a bit on each.

Nope. Margins at best are around 25%. I used to manage a huge pro audio retailer in London and the best margins were 45%. Some (apple products) were as low as 3-4%. Most were between 25% and 15%.

It's not great, but it's not terrible, but by the time you throw in returns, repairs, customer/technical support, shipping, distribution....it's not a massive profit.

That's why I think pioneer wanted to endlessly re-invent the wheel - they needed to keep people buying so keep their volumes high (insert joke here about pioneer redlining). I know several sheeple who would trade up every time they bought out a new mixer.

Vestax would make one mixer, and kept it on market for a 5-10 year product cycle. Pioneer would bring out a new model or "mk2" with as little as 2 years of initial launch.

I think that's whats really behind the sale - it's too much R&D, Marketing and production costs to stay on their business model of low margin, high volume.

But those are the sales margins for re-sellers...

I'm talking about their margins, as manufacturers. Like you said the volume is lot, and that's probably why the prices are so high.

I remember when I bought my 1200's and I thought $500 a deck was ridiculously expensive, now I bought CDJ-2000s for $1800 each less than 10 years later.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN Nope. Margins at best are around 25%. I used to manage a huge pro audio retailer in London and the best margins were 45%. Some (apple products) were as low as 3-4%. Most were between 25% and 15%. It's not great, but it's not terrible, but by the time you throw in returns, repairs, customer/technical support, shipping, distribution....it's not a massive profit. That's why I think pioneer wanted to endlessly re-invent the wheel - they needed to keep people buying so keep their volumes high (insert joke here about pioneer redlining). I know several sheeple who would trade up every time they bought out a new mixer. Vestax would make one mixer, and kept it on market for a 5-10 year product cycle. Pioneer would bring out a new model or "mk2" with as little as 2 years of initial launch. I think that's whats really behind the sale - it's too much R&D, Marketing and production costs to stay on their business model of low margin, high volume.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryan0751 But those are the sales margins for re-sellers... I'm talking about their margins, as manufacturers. Like you said the volume is lot, and that's probably why the prices are so high. I remember when I bought my 1200's and I thought $500 a deck was ridiculously expensive, now I bought CDJ-2000s for $1800 each less than 10 years later.

In nearly every industry, the sales margins are relative to manufacturer margins unless the manufacturer is either a genius and one of the few making decently high %'s (incredibly rare) or an idiot and hardly making any good money (more common than you think).

Their volume is high but not that high compared to other consumer electronics. They probably sell 100 times the number of $500 car stereos compared to $2000 CDJ units, and those car stereos have much better margins. DJ equipment, both for retailers and manufacturers have never been great, and that's why so many big brands struggle and even disappear.

$500 a deck was a lot in the grand scheme of things then; you could buy a decent quality hifi deck for half that money and one of the reasons they stopped producing the 1200 range was that they were expensive to produce and ship (heavy).

If you ever open up your CDJ2000 you'll see why it costs so much. It's basically a fully fledged computer built for playing music in rough environments. I still think $1800 is a joke for a single CDJ but by the time you take out all the associated costs (and I'm not even talking about marketing) they are probably only making a couple of hundred per unit.

Too bad they're not priced high enough to keep the nub "I want to be a DJ to get laid" kids out of the scene.

There was a time where you bought a Pio cdj or mixer and you knew you were safe for the next 4-5. In the last few years it seems they have been flooding the market to try to be everything to everyone, and have a product at every price point. New versions used to be significant updates, but now these minute changes add an effect here, rearrange a button there.

Too many models too quickly. Look at the cdj 850. It's essentially the same player as my 800mk2's from 6 years ago with a USB input. They have that AND the 900. The 900 should be the price of the 850 and nix the 850.

This whole nexus thing is too much too. Can you imagine buying two cdj 2000's and two years later having a new flagship replace it?

**End rant**

quote:

Originally posted by miamitranceman There was a time where you bought a Pio cdj or mixer and you knew you were safe for the next 4-5. In the last few years it seems they have been flooding the market to try to be everything to everyone, and have a product at every price point. New versions used to be significant updates, but now these minute changes add an effect here, rearrange a button there. Too many models too quickly. Look at the cdj 850. It's essentially the same player as my 800mk2's from 6 years ago with a USB input. They have that AND the 900. The 900 should be the price of the 850 and nix the 850. This whole nexus thing is too much too. Can you imagine buying two cdj 2000's and two years later having a new flagship replace it? **End rant**

I couldn't agree more. Just look at their brand spankin new DJM 750 that got announced today. It's more like an updated 700.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...Twist+of+a+Knob

quote:

Originally posted by DjWoody I couldn't agree more. Just look at their brand spankin new DJM 750 that got announced today. It's more like an updated 700. http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...Twist+of+a+Knob

The ability to change the intensity of an effect? My Ecler Evo 5 has had that for years now. Crazy how this is exactly what I was talking about!

quote:

Originally posted by DjWoody I couldn't agree more. Just look at their brand spankin new DJM 750 that got announced today. It's more like an updated 700. http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...Twist+of+a+Knob

Totally. The problem with their model is that they have tried to stay ahead by endlessly putting out new models which have ever shortening life spans.

For instance, the CDJ1000 had three revisions - with a tiny bit of foresight the latter two revisions could have been firmware upgrades, but instead, and mainly due to competional reasons and greed, they decided to release whole new models.

Part of it is I believe they put models out there that may be "ready" but could be better with another 6 months R&D, but thet don't give a shit - they got used to "let's get this out before someone else does, and we'll just do a mk2 after the public beta tests it for us".

In the long term it's made more savvy consumers (like us) resent them for it and ruins brand trust. I'll never buy a pioneer mixer - they have proved their focus is on gimmicks, not build or sound quality.

It's also stupid as a business model as the second hand market is flooded with previous models, so only clubs, or twats with too much money buy the new models.

quote:

Originally posted by KiNeTiC ENeRgY Too bad they're not priced high enough to keep the nub "I want to be a DJ to get laid" kids out of the scene.

But that's the perfect part. Overpriveleged asshole sees DJ's pull chicks on TV, gets equipment, finds out it will involve work, sells equipment at a lower price. We get cheaper dj equipment AND we have deterred at least one person + a couple of his friends to become DJ's. IT's a win/win

Edit: And that's basically the same thing the RANN said in the last line of his post. lol gotta finish reading threads before replying :P

quote:

Originally posted by itsamemario But that's the perfect part. Overpriveleged asshole sees DJ's pull chicks on TV, gets equipment, finds out it will involve work, sells equipment at a lower price. We get cheaper dj equipment AND we have deterred at least one person + a couple of his friends to become DJ's. IT's a win/win Edit: And that's basically the same thing the RANN said in the last line of his post. lol gotta finish reading threads before replying :P

It's okay Mario you're busy getting your 1ups.

Id rather buy a turntable than a cdj. They are cheaper and last 10x longer. Turntables dicers and serato is the best setup imo. I do like the djm800/900 tho. But i own the ttm 57. But my next mixer is prob gonna be the db4. So pioneer isnt getting any money from me anytime soon

Off topic but ive seen several ppl using cdjs2000s with serato/traktor. I dont get it...

Is funny to think how many current gen CDJ's may never even have a cd in them even once. Even in mine I only use DVS control CDs.

Oh snap i keep forgetting about the usb yeah cdjs will prob last a lot longer than they used to.

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