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-- Legal action: When is it worth it?

Legal action: When is it worth it?

Unbeknownst to me, my bank automatically added two monthly payments to my account. One from a mobile phone company, the other... from a company I've never even heard of, but apparently publishes curricula online for a fee. Both would be awesome, had I not purchased a pre-paid phone from an altogether different company ages ago and landed myself an awesome job a while ago as well. I thought it was an honest mistake, and went to my bank today. It wasn't a large sum of money, my losses totalled about 40 dollars.

Upon my arrival, I learned I could not have the money they already withdrew from my account back because... they had already withdrawn it from my account, and it rightfully belongs to these companies now. All I could do was block future payments from these companies (and these companies alone) and check my account every other week to make sure no one charged me for random things I never got. I then decided to go to the phone company, but it was just as frustrating: their system was down, and they asked me to come back later tomorrow with a letter stating that I've never had any business with them - provided the system will be back when I show up. The other company is an online company, and I'm afraid I may clog something if I shove myself into the series of tubes known as the internet. I'm sure that's how Russian hackers operate anyway, and God know what they're capable of.

So, the question is:

1. When is it okay, in your opinion, to take legal action? Would you go to the phone company again, or is once more than enough? Should I even bother locating the online company? I visited their website, and there isn't a single page I can use to contact them - unless I sign up.
   
2. Would you sue the bank for failing to protect you and inform you before it was too late?
   
3. Has something similar ever happened to you? What did you go?

I would change banks.

Both of the banks I've used here in Murrica made it quite easy to undo fraudulent charges.

Not sure what you could get out of a suit. It seems rather likely that you would end up with less money on balance after the legal costs (which I imagine would be well in excess of $40, but then I don't know anything about the Brazilian legal system...).

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Originally posted by Vector A I would change banks.

A change is definitely in order.

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Originally posted by Vector A Not sure what you could get out of a suit. It seems rather likely that you would end up with less money on balance after the legal costs (which I imagine would be well in excess of $40, but then I don't know anything about the Brazilian legal system...).

I could probably use the state to sue them (free of charge), and get the money they now owe me (namely twice as much as they got from me) plus "damages". A student who overheard the conversation with my wife said her cousin did something similar and, money wise, it was definitely worth it as he got 3500 dollars in reparations... and that's what made me wonder if it's fair. Sounds like too high a sum to get for such a small mistake.

Haha, that sounds really high, but if it seems like it might work, I guess go for it.

In the UK we have something called the "direct debit guarantee" where if you dispute a direct debit payment the bank can get you your money back (although not any bank fees that may have been incurred).

If you can sue the companies responsible through the state, get your money back and get some extra, them fuck 'em. It's free money for you, and since these companies are exploiting people to make money they deserve being charged some excessive damages. If it becomes a well-known precedent, it may dissuade them from their nefarious business practises and in the process save further innocent people from having their money stolen.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J In the UK we have something called the "direct debit guarantee" where if you dispute a direct debit payment the bank can get you your money back (although not any bank fees that may have been incurred).

yeah but lira is mexican. his 'direct debit guarantee' comes in semi and fully automatic formats.

It boggles me that your bank added a monthly payment from a company you never heard of. How did they get you bank information ni the first place?


edit: to


thats pretty good legal grounds to sue i would say

Definitely sue.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J If you can sue the companies responsible through the state, get your money back and get some extra, them fuck 'em. It's free money for you, and since these companies are exploiting people to make money they deserve being charged some excessive damages. If it becomes a well-known precedent, it may dissuade them from their nefarious business practises and in the process save further innocent people from having their money stolen.

This.

Sue the cunts, Lira.

Wait what? Companies can just set up payments themselves? Or did the bank to it for them? This whole thing sounds really weird, but I think that might be because Norwegian banks work in an entirely different way. You have to set up automatic payments yourself, or at least (request then) approve them. And any other payment has to be authorized either by one of those code chippies, or card+pin code.

Good luck getting your money back, though you'll likely not see a dime without putting in some serious effort. Small claims cases like this are a bitch.

Yes, it would probably be worth looking into how these companies got hold of your bank details, especially if Brazil doesn't benefit from protective banking laws.

You didn't approve payments.

Sue the bank, sue the two companies. Move money to different bank. Send "damages" to us.

The paper work and waiting for your time in front of the judge will probably total more than 6 hours. I doubt you will even have to worry about them sending a representative so you will win which is only a judgement and you will probably get that money in a few months.

Suing for 40$ is kinda fucking ridiculous. Perhaps have someone call on your behalf as I don't see how even a Brazilian bank would not fuck about for such a small sum. Unless you have a record of delinquency.

You should always use a credit card for any payment. Surely even VISA has some sort of fraud protection in Brazil.

Kinda scary that they have your bank info. Easy to do if you are paying things with it but if the bank is actually giving this information, time to switch banks.

That's pretty disturbing that a bank would just add debits to your account without permission Banks over here would get a pretty sizable fine for doing something like that, assuming it was reported (which in the case of legal action, would definitely happen).

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I feel I should sue.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J In the UK we have something called the "direct debit guarantee" where if you dispute a direct debit payment the bank can get you your money back (although not any bank fees that may have been incurred).

I could've sworn we had something similar. I guess you can only get an automatic refund from credit cards here

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J If you can sue the companies responsible through the state, get your money back and get some extra, them fuck 'em. It's free money for you, and since these companies are exploiting people to make money they deserve being charged some excessive damages. If it becomes a well-known precedent, it may dissuade them from their nefarious business practises and in the process save further innocent people from having their money stolen.

That's the main reason why I'm thinking of doing it.

Brazilian bureaucracy is staggering, and it only leads to more frauds the way I see it, because of how complex the system is. In order to add a direct debit to my account, I would have to use my CPF (Natural Person Registry) in order to make this transaction, probably my RG (General Registry, akin to an ID), my signature, and have access to my debit card or my online account. That's way too much information, and I'd have to be warned if someone hacked my account or used my card.

To be honest, I believe either there's a glitch in the system and/or someone cocked up in the process, but how could the bank and the companies fail to notice I was in no way related to the person who benefited from these debits!?

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Originally posted by itsamemario Wait what? Companies can just set up payments themselves? Or did the bank to it for them? This whole thing sounds really weird, but I think that might be because Norwegian banks work in an entirely different way. You have to set up automatic payments yourself, or at least (request then) approve them. And any other payment has to be authorized either by one of those code chippies, or card+pin code.

That's how it usually works here (refer to my reply to Karim).

It's truly bizarre.

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Originally posted by itsamemario Good luck getting your money back, though you'll likely not see a dime without putting in some serious effort. Small claims cases like this are a bitch.

Actually, there's a fast-track court here for small cases called "Vara de Pequenas Causas", and I'm sure they'll take care of this in no time.

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit It boggles me that your bank added a monthly payment from a company you never heard of. How did they get you bank information ni the first place?

No. Idea. Whatsoever.

My wife believes my bank account may have been hacked, and come to think of it, something similar happened to my mother a while ago. It's downright bizarre because I wouldn't be able to do these things easily myself if I wanted to - reason I only use this service to pay for my electricity bills, and I had to go to the bank fill out a couple of forms to do it

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Originally posted by Looney4Clooney Suing for 40$ is kinda fucking ridiculous. Perhaps have someone call on your behalf as I don't see how even a Brazilian bank would not fuck about for such a small sum. Unless you have a record of delinquency.

Wait, what? I'm not thinking of doing this for 40 dollars, but because they're recklessly taking money off my account, and I apparently can't get it back otherwise (unless I'm really patient with the phone company and track the online company down). Also, keep in mind there's the unfavourable exchange rate, so it's worth a lot more than it seems (the Brazilian Real is undervalued).

And delinquency!? What are you on about?!

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Originally posted by Looney4Clooney You should always use a credit card for any payment. Surely even VISA has some sort of fraud protection in Brazil.

Yeah, I'd be delighted if they used my credit card instead, but apparently they weren't so thoughtful.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN yeah but lira is mexican. his 'direct debit guarantee' comes in semi and fully automatic formats.

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Originally posted by Lira Wait, what? I'm not thinking of doing this for 40 dollars, but because they're recklessly taking money off my account, and I apparently can't get it back otherwise (unless I'm really patient with the phone company and track the online company down). Also, keep in mind there's the unfavourable exchange rate, so it's worth a lot more than it seems (the Brazilian Real is undervalued). And delinquency!? What are you on about?!

Delinquency in this context would imply you had racked up lots of bad credit and been generally not careful with money, not paying your bills on time. Not done what you're supposed to, in short, which I'm pretty sure is the definition of the word. Anyways, had that been the case, you'd have a harder time getting your money back.

His advice on giving someone authority to call on your behalf was by the way a really good advice. Even if he doesn't identify himself as a lawyer, the impact of "and I representing Marcus Lira" is so much greater than "Hi, My name is Lira and uhm like.. my money is gone?".
I would think that goes double for a country riddled with corrupcy.

Also, if you had to go the bank to fill out a form to set up an intial monthly payment plan, then you probably missed something in the fine print that says that they can buttfuck you at their pleasing. How reputable is this phone company you were billed from? Could be owned by the bank, or more likely by someone who works in it. In that case, I'd forget about the 40 bucks. Principles are one thing, but you don't go fucking about with Brazilian criminals

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Originally posted by itsamemario Delinquency in this context would imply you had racked up lots of bad credit and been generally not careful with money, not paying your bills on time. Not done what you're supposed to, in short, which I'm pretty sure is the definition of the word. Anyways, had that been the case, you'd have a harder time getting your money back.

Actually, delinquency sounds a lot worse than that. Way worse.

Either way, I've always had good credit. I'm a hippy, I barely spend any money.

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Originally posted by itsamemario How reputable is this phone company you were billed from?

Phone companies in Brazil are notoriously bad. The reason I have a pre-paid phone is because they kept overcharging me with a normal plan.

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Originally posted by Lira Actually, delinquency sounds a lot worse than that. Way worse. Either way, I've always had good credit. I'm a hippy, I barely spend any money.

If you've only heard it used it courtroom dramas, and only know of it as Juvenile delinquent, then sure, I can see that pov :P
But the definition is as follows;

quote:

de�lin�quen�cy (d-lngkwn-s, -ln-) n. pl. de�lin�quen�cies 1. Juvenile delinquency. 2. Failure to do what law or duty requires. 3. An offense or a misdemeanor; a misdeed. 4. A debt or other financial obligation on which payment is overdue.

When I worked at an office during my time in the UK, the office ladies often used the phrase "delinquent in payment" in documents as to say people late on their bills.
So it may sound alot worse, but it actually isn't that bad.

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Phone companies in Brazil are notoriously bad. The reason I have a pre-paid phone is because they kept overcharging me with a normal plan.

tl;dr, but also because you didn't address the part where I inquired as to the details of the contract you may or may not have signed to authorize the bank to set up monthly payments on your behalf.

Weird jargon.

Anyway, I didn't say anything about that because it obviously isn't something the banks are allowed to do. They're allowed to collect fees, and that's about it. The bank teller who assisted me admitted it was messed up herself.

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Originally posted by Lira Weird jargon. Anyway, I didn't say anything about that because it obviously isn't something the banks are allowed to do. They're allowed to collect fees, and that's about it. The bank teller who assisted me admitted it was messed up herself.

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My wife believes my bank account may have been hacked, and come to think of it, something similar happened to my mother a while ago. It's downright bizarre because I wouldn't be able to do these things easily myself if I wanted to - reason I only use this service to pay for my electricity bills, and I had to go to the bank fill out a couple of forms to do it

Those forms. They are the ones I'm referring too. You should go over those papers (forms like that usually comes with a printout of your obligations and rights), if they're not buried under 8 ft stacks of exams that should have been corrected last week.
It's the only loop-hole I can think of that would let them do this.
So yah, could be an idea to see what that paper said before moving forward, a judge is gonna ask for it anyhow.

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Originally posted by itsamemario Those forms. They are the ones I'm referring too. You should go over those papers (forms like that usually comes with a printout of your obligations and rights), if they're not buried under 8 ft stacks of exams that should have been corrected last week. It's the only loop-hole I can think of that would let them do this. So yah, could be an idea to see what that paper said before moving forward, a judge is gonna ask for it anyhow.

Ah! The papers only allow me (or them) to add those specific debits I authorised (from the power company and my internet provider).

Okay, then you should have everything in order on your site.
How do they deal with legal costs in Brazil, does the losing party have to pay the winners fees? Or is that just something that I've imagined happens on american law shows?

If that's the case, then I'd say go for it. They're stealing money from you, and you have a paper trail leading to the culprit.

Best case scenario, there's been a glitch in the system, worst case scenario, identity theft.

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Originally posted by Lira Weird jargon. Anyway, I didn't say anything about that because it obviously isn't something the banks are allowed to do. They're allowed to collect fees, and that's about it. The bank teller who assisted me admitted it was messed up herself.

How high is your balance ? Banks pretty much ignore anyone that doesn't keep at least a few thousand in their account. When I was a student, i had my card taken and 800 withdrawn. Those machines have cameras and should of been able to identify that i did not make the withdrawals. They were very slow to act not willing to bend despite me doing everything in my power as soon as I noticed it was gone and then filing a police report after the fact. My parents made 1 phone call and mentioned that I was their son and that they should give me the benefit of the doubt. They didn't know anyone at the bank or at least that branch personally. They probably just looked at their balance and made a decision based on that. 800 $ is not even enough for them to investigate in any way. Kinda fucked that the poor guy will always get the worst treatment but i guess it makes sense.

This was a Canadian based bank which is pretty regulated. I know about mexican banks so if Brazil is anywhere close, it is probably pretty dire.

But i would definately close your current account and open another one. Someone has your info. And that shit will be passed on like Russels fiance when he is out of town.

The answer is ... DJRYAN

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