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The US Crisis! Yet another political thread.

I've seen a few posts regarding the current socio-political affairs of this beautiful planet of ours.
And alot of people here seem to love politics as much as I do.
Well it's only a game after all. Plays with peoples lives but ... only a game.

There are alot of confused posts here. All to do with the war in Iraq and the rest of the shit.
Everyone seems to be thinking on a superficial layer. You need to dig deeper people.

The whole "War on Terror" has been an excuse for various US foreign polocies to be carried out. First of all they wanted to overthrow the Taliban in Afghanestan way before S/11. The reason for that is the oil pipes they have already started building now. The attack merely green-lighted the US to get rid of their own dogs. Don't forget the Taliban was placed in Afghanland and given weapons by the US to fight the Soviet Union during the cold war.

Second of all the American Empire is taking it's last dying breaths.
ANY! Any! Empire that resorts to military action as a last resort is doomed to oblivion. And the US is no exception. America is siting on a mountain of debt and is a decaying economic power that has to compete with the European community, Japan, and now the emerging Chinese Super-Economy. It is only a matter of time before it splits apart. It's not a question of IF but WHEN!

And as Noam Chomsky says. Any Tyranical structure has all sorts of conflicts internal to it. It was true of the soviet union and now it's true of the American Empire. And don't think twice, just because the US has a democracy label on it doesn't make it any less of a monster. They brainwash their people while the REDS prefered good old fashioned force. Anyway, so the US has various internal conflicts and the way to divert conflicts is to export them through war. This is what these structures always do. they Export conflict. If the US doesn't engage in war after war then the hurricane will be diverted back inside it's own borders and it will worsen the already deepened crisis.

Now this crisis goes a little deeper. Capitalism is now in trouble on a world wide scale. Forces of production have been revolutionized to such a point where production has been at it's peak for the last 20 years, So the markets are starting to die. What goes up must come down after all. There are bubbles everywhere. And this is not merely at a recession level but much much deeper in it's nature. This is what Marx predicted over a centuary ago.

No system or structure is imortal. All systems decay and all Empires crumble. This is the single most important point in human history. The whole world is in a state of flux and change, and the future is always unknown. We will either face another great war or the engines of change will be turned around to work for the benifet of maknind rather than for profit.

So which one will it be? WAR? Well the US will support the idea! Since after world war two the US has dedicated a substancial amount of it's wealth to building it's war machine while it's competitors EU and Japan were working hard building their economies, So they are way behind in the economical catchup game. Especially with the embreyo of the Chinese Empire in the oven. So the way to stay a float is to exercise military power.
And that is contradictory to the intrests of the European community!!!
And here lies the paradox.
Europeans don't want war, they wan't Global stability so their markets remain fucntioning at full capacity.

So no matter how you look at it America is finding itself more alone as time goes by.
The US is a not as powerfull as it seems either. It's strengths are greatly tied to that of it's allies. So with these cords weakened, it's starts to become weak itself.

Just another victim of empirial over expansion......

I see this will probably end in flames.....so i'll say my stuff then run off. There are two sides to everything and certain people say this about america, certain ppl say this about america. America is guilty of just about every country in the world (including canada) is guilty of and that is trying to police everything. You cannot be peacemaker everywhere and if you do not like something, go and invade a country. That said, i have no position on any war. I don't support it or hate it. I just think people (powerful world leaders) need to realize that every action (no matter how good it is).....has a downside and will have some consequence. I think we need to think a lot more before we act in terms of a global or national conflict.

You've got a great point, I can't discuss what's really happening with economics means that much as I dont have that much of a knowledge about it .
But one thing is certain, American government wants to rule the worlds economy, and wants the government to run as how it is convinient for american themselfs, if they dont agree to run how americans want it to, they will not give or help whenever help is needed in means of econmoy.
This may not be on topic, but for whenever elections of some country, the Amercan gov't sents representatives in order to see that everything runs smoothly. What happened on the 2000 election ? they sent representatives to watch that everything goes well on other countries for their own interests, but dont care nor shows a freely voting system, as Popular Vote does not COUNT which is something I find extremely ridiculous.

Back to Bush and the war agains terrorism. Before the september 11th attack, Bush's rating were down the plumb. THe economic was allready going down, the tax cuts which he did were all what I call B/S as only wealthy people were benefited, to where most of the people probobly got a 10 dollar check, some got 200 bucks, then the government began to ask part of the money given back. Bush placed at risk the Social Security savings and the countries money reserves. I remember clearly how Bush asked every citizen to invest on shares, now, imagine if we had done so, how much money would we have lost ? ..
Something to use common sense.
Well, as I was saying, since Bush's rating were down to a 60 percent aproval as to what he was doing, the terrorism attack helped him distract the people from everything that was happening inside the nation, as a way of patriotism everyone supported him in order to get the bad guys back. Sadly, as I noticed, he used this as a blanket in order to forget all the other problems. It was found that the presidents administration had known that there was a planning of al Queda was going to attack, and that he didnt pay to much attention to it, coincidently, Cheney, the vicepresident, placed the country under red alert once again, as conress was asking for the papers that the Administration actually has... mmm once again diverting problems that could affect the president ?!?!?

AS time went on.. nothing was talked more then Bin Ladin.. then the nation was gradually coming back to normal, watching disgracefully how the market is goind down the toilet, as well watching the biggest companis going bankruptcy, something never seen in history since the great depression. This is Bushs solution.. he gather big companies ( that support him ) and went to his Texan ranch.. supposedly to solve the economic conflict, and wow, its magic, within 4 hours they supposedly solve what comes to be one of the biggest economic crisis.

Well, now the elections for seats on the senate are coming on november 1, and the president is loosing rating big time once again, back to its 60 percent, and he decides to, out of no where come in conflict with Iraq, but the person with the most intusiasm was Dick Cheney.. the vicepresident ? why ?! mmmm for my knowledge he is owner of some petroleum right here at home. Money does ring the bell ?

Wars actually help support whoever president is on at the time, as longest the president says all the nice words .. people, as longest it has to do with security, they will support him and his candidates, with Iraq, the president support went up to 80 percent, why ? because people in america THINK that by attacking IRAQ they will actually be save, but dont think further to what the reality may be, I really dont know, but for logical reasons, it all comes together as to what many agree.
The president just wants to go to Iraq, overthrow Saddam, and take power over the OIL reserves , which is 6 percent of what we consume today from that nation. But does the president actually think what the realy income and effect is by doing this ? Its he thinking the national econmic recession ? thats he think how has he affected the what used to be developing countries in South America and the rest of the world ? thats he think of the inoccent people that will actually die including our own soldiers ? ? ? does he THINK the impact of heaving big nations and majority of the people against US actions ? ?
mmmmm as I see it I doubtly think so ..
Its an obvious thing as Bin Ladin has said that he will once again attack back, why the heck did he leave him asside and totally forget about him and go and attack Iraq ? ?

One thing is for sure, Im counting down the days so BUSH gets out of all the power he has, and hope that his administrations decision dont cause the trouble that I and many know it will cause. Its sad to see how americans, on 2000 did one of the biggest mistakes ever.. = BUSH.

those are some good points illusion. I think Europe is tired of war and realized that war disrupted all of their happy dandy lives.

I think america is trying to divert peoples attention from the economic slump by turning the focus on war. Nortel is now around $0.77 from quite a high price before. Nortel should be bumped into a penny stock and kicked hard in the ass for making consumers loosing so much money, while the CEO still makes bling bling.

war sux

wow, long posts

see, many of our problems have been caused by bush, as liquidX has outlined earlier...but just to reply. see, bush is a dumbass, but the US isnt going to die just ebcause of that.

-Iraq makes very little oil, so i dont understand how attacking it will cause the US to dominate oil supplies. The reaosn why we are attacking them is that they are believed to be procuring weapons of mass destruction, and if saddam gets them, it will destabilize the region, which will in turn destab. the worlds oil supplies. rememmeber, we should trust the CIA and the british MI whatever, since they know more than us.

to me, the first post in this thread reflects a view of a harcore pessimist. The us economy is structured in such a way so that there wont be a terrible collapse, nor will there be a meteoric rise. I can see why he/she thinks that way though. The poerid in the late 90s was an extremely large bubble, and many in the world and the US see that as sort of an ideal economy. The economy now is pretty bad, but it is more "normal" than that of the 90s.

Ths U.S. is not a pure market economy: it is somewhat regulated by the government. i highly doubt it will ever return to the state of the 90s, but seriously, what are the chances of "collapse"? the whole reason why we had economic crevasses was because of poor decision making by a FEW dumbasses, IE vietnam war, IE mass military buildup by ronald raegan. Sure,t here will be more competition later, but that will only better the US economy, for it promotes even greater efficiency and better decision making

the point of my post? i guess...the decision making of a few dumbasses will not result in the collapse of one of the largest and economically powerful nations in the world.

~4

Re: The US Crisis! Yet another political thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Illusion Second of all the American Empire is taking it's last dying breaths. ANY! Any! Empire that resorts to military action as a last resort is doomed to oblivion. And the US is no exception. America is siting on a mountain of debt and is a decaying economic power that has to compete with the European community, Japan, and now the emerging Chinese Super-Economy. It is only a matter of time before it splits apart. It's not a question of IF but WHEN!

I agree with this to some extent. Nothing last forever, and America can be no different. Of course, on a long enough timeline, it is unlikely that any country in the world will even still exist. I don't know that America is really in as much trouble as you portray, however. Certainly, the latest trends in the behavior, both domestically and internationally, of the United States government are a grim specter for the future prospects of the nation.

But since the possibility of a change in leadership exists at regular intervals, we can in no way be certain that this self-destructive pattern of behavior will be maintained long enough to permanently damage the US' international dominance. The debt is not as big a problem as you portray, obviously, because it existed in full force for the entire 1990's economic boon. Furthermore, the competitors you speak of all have serious issues of their own. The EU has a lot of potential, but its member nations have, and will likely to continue to have, problems properly coordinating their efforts into a single vision. Japan's recent economic collapse was more severe than the US' is likely to reach, and they have yet to make significant progress towards recovering. And I don't see the Chinese economy as being an international force as long as they remain communist. They are still a manufacturing economy, which is very primitive compared to the other nations you mentioned.

Lastly, I don't think that the US' recent proclivity for war is an indicator of anything at all, other than perhaps the lack of prudence on the part of our current leadership. The strongest cannot remain the strongest by passive behavior. Only by continuing to suppress threats to its dominance can it hope to maintain dominance. This is true within ANY power structure, not just international politics. So while I do not necessarily condone the invasion of Iraq, the philisophical principles behind it are sound.

The US needs sound leadership, and hasn't had it for quite some time now. The US has been in decline basically since the end of WWII in various ways, but I suspect it is merely a cyclic correction, and that it will begin to ascend again once the circumstances are right.

Cheers,

Arbiter

1) Bush didn't fuck things over for the US when it comes to the Middle East, Clinton did. Anyone who knows anything about politics knows that.

2) America will not be around forever, everyone knows that. Quit trying to sound like an all-knowing smart ass. Is it on the decline? Who knows. I dont think so, but i have no facking clue. Personally, I think with the globalization that is going on, it won't matter what country you live in.

quote:

Originally posted by davinox 1) Bush didn't fuck things over for the US when it comes to the Middle East, Clinton did. Anyone who knows anything about politics knows that. 2) America will not be around forever, everyone knows that. Quit trying to sound like an all-knowing smart ass. Is it on the decline? Who knows. I dont think so, but i have no facking clue. Personally, I think with the globalization that is going on, it won't matter what country you live in.

Mmmm as I see you know nothing about politics, what proofs do you have that Clinton messed the Middle East situation ? when Clinton attacked was because HE had to .. there was proofs.. and he was forced to by the REPUBLICAAAAANS !
Now Bush goes and wants to attack Iraq just because he THINKS that has connections with AL QUAEDA>. now.. whats up with bin ladin ? did he becomes friends with BUSH all of the sudden ?

quote:

Originally posted by davinox 1) Bush didn't fuck things over for the US when it comes to the Middle East, Clinton did. Anyone who knows anything about politics knows that.

seriously dude, you're pretty messed up in the head...
Clinton's actions regarding the Middle East were the most far-reaching and influential of any US President's! He got Arafat and Rabin to shake hands, he invited them for negotiations a lot of times, the way he was engaged in the Middle East -- and the way he sought compromise -- was way beyond anything else...

quote:

Originally posted by LiquidX now.. whats up with bin ladin ? did he becomes friends with BUSH all of the sudden ?

I bet bin ladin is dead. If he wasn't, he'd have already put out like 30 tapes bragging about how the US can't get him.

Illusion -- I won't even bother replying to your vociferous anti-American diatribe, you're just like all of them... stubborn and dumb.

quote:

Originally posted by LiquidX as well watching the biggest companis going bankruptcy

who enron? tyco? and all the other fraudulant compinies who lied and committed unlawful acts in business? you know what their companies deserved to be punished. that has nothing to do with Bush or his policies but rather greedy CEO's and other top notch business me willing to break the law in order to get more money

quote:

Originally posted by torontotrance I see this will probably end in flames.....

Nah, fortunately, flamers seem to be gone. This thread sure looks interesting, but I'm kinda busy now - I'll read everything tomorrow and post my opinion then.

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy who enron? tyco? and all the other fraudulant compinies who lied and committed unlawful acts in business? you know what their companies deserved to be punished. that has nothing to do with Bush or his policies but rather greedy CEO's and other top notch business me willing to break the law in order to get more money

Why does the company have to be punish just because of 1 or some corrupted bosses ? .. so it means that all the innocent workers have to pay for corruption, whats up with the mixed economy ?!?! where is the gov't to regulate all this actions ? why 300 comapanies go bankruptcy and ahve all this corruption right during Bush's administration ? why isnt he doing anything for that matter ? .. so many questions I just cant find an answer for.. in some form I did..

quote:

Originally posted by LiquidX Why does the company have to be punish just because of 1 or some corrupted bosses ?

that is the risk of corruption in corporations.

quote:

.. so it means that all the innocent workers have to pay for corruption, whats up with the mixed economy ?!?!

how about innocent construction workers who die on site during work, every employee should know the risks of joining a profession.

quote:

where is the gov't to regulate all this actions?

how can you regulate a lie?

quote:

why 300 comapanies go bankruptcy and ahve all this corruption right during Bush's administration ?

i know you're kidding about the 300 number but all under Bush's eyes? this practice has been going on since time began. it only surfaces when there is a period of economic turn down and true gains and losses can be seen. this is part of the business cycle.

quote:

why isnt he doing anything for that matter ?

not doing anything? seems like this has been dying down as of late. furthermore the Alan Greespan has been designated by Presidents Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Bush Jr as Chairman of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve. he's been in control of many aspects of US economy for the past 15 years or more. so saying bush is worse the clinton makes no real impact as the presidents do exactly as greenspan advises.

quote:

so many questions I cant cant find an answer for..

i hope i answered a few

quote:

Originally posted by Eugene Illusion -- I won't even bother replying to your vociferous anti-American diatribe, you're just like all of them... stubborn and dumb.

Critisising a governmental system does not make me anti American.

I love America as much as the next person, and that's exactly why.
America doesn't belong to it's wonderful people. It's owned by the upper 1 percent that runns every thing.

Fact: The US Government spends $848 a year PER HEAD on military expenditure.

FACT: 1 out of every 3 American kids now goes to bed on an empty stomach.

Re: Re: The US Crisis! Yet another political thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter I agree with this to some extent. Nothing last forever, and America can be no different. Of course, on a long enough timeline, it is unlikely that any country in the world will even still exist. And I don't see the Chinese economy as being an international force as long as they remain communist.

First of all America is going to be around as long as there are humans on earth. I was only refering to great economic and political change when I said the Empire will crumble.


And about China.

China is not exactly an all communist country. The system is double edged and it HAS been for a long time. And right now they are opening their boarders to more foreign investment. You have to study their economic system. Just because the whole world is shouting "Communist China", it doesn't necessarily make it so.

As I mentioned before. The substance is the same. The method of control is the difference.

China uses pure force for keeping it's population under control. but latly they've been moving in the direction of the US themselves.

They've come to the conclusion that you can't control people using force for long. Some thing the US learned during the Labour Strikes of the 1920s. So they desided that all sorts of mechanisms have to be created to control what people think. Using the Media ofcourse.

The mechanism of the US corporate prapaganda system had two major objectives from the start, which achived successfuly.

1. To identify the Free Market system with people's deepest beliefs and values.

2. To identify labour unions with Tyranical governments such as Stalinist Russia.

After that the the mass media has played a more and more powerfull role everyday.

And it doesn't stop at the media either.
A great deal of what you see in the eduction system comes straight out of the public relations area too.

quote:

Originally posted by Illusion Fact: The US Government spends $848 a year PER HEAD on military expenditure.

A governments first and foremost duty is to protect its citizens, to maintain order within and protection from outside threats.
As there is a very real threat to the US right now, the government has a right to do what it must to protect its citizens. most of that $848 comes straight from tax payers, there would be a whole lot more complaining causing to a change in government policy if the public did not see this as nessacry

quote:

Originally posted by Illusion = FACT: 1 out of every 3 American kids now goes to bed on an empty stomach.

theres soup kitchens n shit.

How much say do you think the public has on government polocies? Really!

And all that armament is not for protecting "citizens" ok? It's for ripping large wholes in other peoples countries.
The corporate elite doesn't give a shit about it's citizens.
Besides what good is the army if the threat comes from none military areas like biological warfare.



... and I'm just about sick of this topic..

Cheers for replies people.

quote:

Originally posted by davinox theres soup kitchens n shit.

I like soup

quote:

Originally posted by Illusion How much say do you think the public has on government polocies? Really! And all that armament is not for protecting "citizens" ok? It's for ripping large wholes in other peoples countries. The corporate elite doesn't give a shit about it's citizens. Besides what good is the army if the threat comes from none military areas like biological warfare. well obviously, they can destory labs that make the biological warefare. the corporate elite care about their citizens because we are a market economy, and no citizens= no money. ... and I'm just about sick of this topic.. Cheers for replies people.

hhhhhmmmm soup...

Its just history repeating, bomb iraq, take peoples minds of domestics issues, tell them you won a war and saved the free people of the world and win the next election.
I cant help but laugh at the irony of bushes speeches, taling about weapons of mass destruction. Hmmmm lets see now......You have the most weapons of mass destrucion on the planet mr bush, and You have a history of using them, quite frequently too i might add, I mean you are the only country to have dropped two atomic bombs on a civilian population, so who should i fear more saddam or you?? or your controlled news channels that try to keep the public in a constant state of fear so your next test of weapons can be justified??

dont mind me... i dont like politics... i think these types of threads are boring :/

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