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Need help with counterpoint

Hello all of you lovely people

I've tried searching for help on such topics and I've had no success, it seems to be a lost technique perhaps...

Could someone be able to explain to me how to effectively use counterpoint with other melodies? The tracks I have finished to this day don't have counterpoint in them and I feel it is something I am greatly lacking and it's holding me back from further finishing any tracks, I've tried from learning it myself like I usually do but it always ends up just being a massive clash with eachother, it's frustrating

I've written this F harmonic minor scale in Cubase to use as an example, perhaps someone could help me with figuring out how such a counterpoint would work with this particular melody for just an example?

Any do's or don'ts with counterpoint? rules? Thanks in advance I've provided the melody below...

I know what you're talking about.. but I rarely do it.. but essentially, within this same midi pattern, draw an off-setting midi pattern using note derivatives of your primary scale. You'll get that counter-point that you were talking about, as well as some nifty sounding variances to otherwise standard key structure..

In otherwords, just pretend that those already drawn notes don't exist, and draw around them, threw them, and in a variety of octaves and you'll achieve the desired results..

Re: Need help with counterpoint

quote:

Originally posted by AnalogArchangel I've tried searching for help on such topics and I've had no success, it seems to be a lost technique perhaps... Any do's or don'ts with counterpoint? rules?

There are a ton of do's/don'ts/rules in counterpoint and googling something like "musical counterpoint" or "tonal counterpoint" should bring up many primers. It's a subject that usually requires a semester or more to cover, so don't expect to learn it in one thread. But, I will give you a few things to think about when you're delving into counterpoint. Most importantly, is motion - not just rate of movement, but direction. One voice typically moves at a given note division while another stays put, but they can alternate. Read about speciation (the rate at which the cantus firmus moves against the counterpoint). Think about direction of movement - parallel vs opposite/contrary motion vs oblique motion (one voice stays put while the other voice moves). Think about intervals - moving in intervals of thirds and sixths are generally fine, moving in intervals of perfect fifths or fourths, not good. Think about harmonic relationships, consonance and dissonance (lots of rules to consider).

Basically, do some research, try to take it somewhere, then come back with more specific questions. Your example melody above is very basic and, therefore, very open to a wide variety of contrapuntal interpretation.

damn dude, that's some nerd ass shit right there.

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Originally posted by eyepad damn dude, that's some nerd ass shit right there.

Counterpoint isn't cool. It's the academic equivalent of waterboarding - music professors only use it to break the weakest students.

Disagree. It is the foundation of voice leading and harmony. The only training any if the great composers had was counter point . Everything else was self taught.

The problem is that counter point has very specific types which are great exercises but for most modern music, you have maybe 2 voices and learning counterpoint won't do much .

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Originally posted by Looney4Clooney Disagree.

It wasn't a serious response.

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Originally posted by Looney4Clooney The problem is that counter point has very specific types which are great exercises but for most modern music, you have maybe 2 voices and learning counterpoint won't do much .

True, but if you look at the OP's melody (first-fourth scale degrees all locked to the grid [1/4 notes?]), it probably couldn't hurt to add some counterpoint/countermelody, or something more interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Think about intervals - moving in intervals of thirds and sixths are generally fine, moving in intervals of perfect fifths or fourths, not good. Think about harmonic relationships, consonance and dissonance (lots of rules to consider).

I totally know what you mean and thanks I have lots to think about now, sorta like I was doing before but maybe I haven't pushed myself to further my suggestion of ideas to myself.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney The problem is that counter point has very specific types which are great exercises but for most modern music, you have maybe 2 voices and learning counterpoint won't do much .

I produce Goa Trance, something that counterpoint and harmony is heavily used in, many, many layers, so yes I do need counterpoint & harmony.

never heard a psy trance track with actual melodies intertwined. Layers don't say anything. I can sight read orchestral scores and reduce it in real time playing it on a piano because even tho there are 20 or so lines of music, the most complex music rarely exceeds 4 lines of music or points of intertest. and sound fx, well those counterpoint books written centuries ago, they kinda don't touch on that.

And the way counter point is taught just won't do anything for you. You would be better served listening to music.

And it is also like every theoretical idea a framework that works for a particular style of music. Modal jazz, say guys like monk well, i mean parallel unresolved chords and all that stuff, counterpoint would be a waste just like harmony because you just won't go far enough to make it something that will help instead of a hindrance to creativity which all theory tends to do when you start learning.

I just think for your goal, it isn't worth the time. It is interesting but i just don't think it is what will help you the most.

here , listen from 3:30.

At a certain point , you will hear 2 melodies that well, counterpoint I suppose but not something you learn in a book. It is learnt from listening to music, playing instruments and developing an ear.



Even tho there are 6 musical layers doing different things, there really only is 2 actual things that would be considered melodic lines playing off each other. TO be honest, any more than that is just too much for dance. You should have 2 focal points of interest. Anymore and it defeats the purpose of a dance track.

I absolutely agree, and coming from a guitar playing background makes things a little difficult for me.

As for Psy-Trance, Psy doesn't use melodies at all and if so, very rarely, it's all mechanical psychedelic sounds these days, what I'm referring to is the tight organic filter sweeped melodies of the 90's from Goa before it evolved into this Psytrance crap.

Here is a perfect example of a VERY intelligent use of counterpoint listen from 6:00 on, there is at least 3 melodies & pads going on and intertwining with eachother in perfect harmony.

ya that ain't counterpoint.

heres a countermelody for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sALYt4lT-VE

not really. There is only one voice that is prominent. The whole point is that you voices that interweave while both being prominent like a conversation. IT doesn't work in dance because it usually demands too much attention.

You can hear in chorus part 1.30 where the saw bass and the panned lead lines creating a harmony. Isn't that what is it all about? In one part of song only the main saw is playing so you can hear the difference.

found this video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB5cli_OKtQ

quote:

Originally posted by Notle You can hear in chorus part 1.30 where the saw bass and the panned lead lines creating a harmony. Isn't that what is it all about?

harmony ≠ counterpoint.

check the video above

vid Info:
In this video, Brian demonstrates how to create rich melodies and harmonies using the classical principles of "counterpoint."


of course you can use it like looney said in page 1

quote:

Originally posted by Notle check the video above vid Info: In this video, Brian demonstrates how to create rich melodies and harmonies using the classical principles of "counterpoint."

Not to sound like a dick, but a youtube vid isn't going to teach me more than four years of studying music theory/composition in college did. Yes, harmonies are created through use of counterpoint, but in responding to your question above (the one I quoted), simply creating a harmonic relationship between the bass and the lead is not the same thing as counterpoint.

Yeah you little bit sound like a dick but if you actually listened the song i posted you would have (maybe) understand my point there.

wikipedia: In music, counterpoint is the relationship between voices that are interdependent harmonically (polyphony) and yet are independent in rhythm and contour.

I did listen to the track, as did Looney (another dick with a music degree), and we're both telling you that that's not counterpoint or a countermelody as there is only one voice playing a melodic line. Try reading the entire wikipedia article to get an understanding of the difference. Better yet, try listening to and looking at the musical score for some actual counterpoint. You can't change the definition of these terms just because you think I'm a dick, or because you fail to understand them after watching a youtube vid and reading the first line of a wikipedia page.

You're such a dick, Cryo.

I don't have a music degree but ya that's not counterpoint.

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Originally posted by eyepad You're such a dick, Cryo.

Yeah, I know.

But there is more than just one voice playing the melodic line and if you can't hear it maybe you should start practicing your ears more instead telling here how you went to college like its a big thing.

Its funny how every time I decide to write in this forum certain people start acting like dicks instead of civilized conversation. I'm not an expert in theory and all i was trying to get some answers, so instead telling how many years you went to college you should teach us uneducated folks how its done.

quote:

Originally posted by Notle But there is more than just one voice playing the melodic line and if you can't hear it maybe you should start practicing your ears more instead telling here how you went to college like its a big thing. Its funny how every time I decide to write in this forum certain people start acting like dicks instead of civilized conversation. I'm not an expert in theory and all i was trying to get some answers, so instead telling how many years you went to college you should teach us uneducated folks how its done.

I don't see where I wrote anything uncivilized. You told me to look at a youtube vid. I told you that I don't need a youtube vid to teach me something that I've learned in college. I have a degree in music and I stated that as a fact so you know that you're getting advice from somebody who is educated on the subject. I also have advanced degrees in science. Those facts should tell you that I know a thing or two about many things. If that makes you feel insecure about yourself, too fucking bad. Get over it. I think most people (not all) would agree that I'm one of the more helpful and friendly forum members.

quote:

Those facts should tell you that I know a thing or two about many things

Wow, maybe you should be an astronaut then your so hilarious. Is that kind of talk common in US, it so funny. Heres your trophy MR cocky/ friendly!

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Originally posted by Notle Wow, maybe you should be an astronaut then your so hilarious. Is that kind of talk common in US, it so funny. Heres your trophy MR cocky/ friendly!

you need some self esteem, my friend. Cryo was trying to help and doing a pretty good job until you got all butthurt over his creds.

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