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Mixing bass!

Hey guys!

Ill drop my noob question here. But how do you approach mixing bass and kick?

Do the kick stand for the lowest low (40-90 Hz) and the bass above that (90-200 Hz)?

If so, is it always or only if they both 'hit' at the same time?

Thank you!

Sidechain and high pass filter. It's not rocket science brah.

High pass kick somewhere around 20hz. High pass bass somewhere around 60hz. High pass snare anywhere from 20hz to 150hz, depending on what you're going for. High pass everything else from 150hz to 200hz, at least.

The best advice you will ever get will be the simplest advice: Use your ears. If it sounds good to you, chances are, it'll sound good to others too.
I recently got out of the habit of doing things "by the book" because my tracks sounded like absolute crap! Just remember to cut the mids (250-800khz) on everything to make the overall sound clearer.

quote:

Originally posted by kosmotika The best advice you will ever get will be the simplest advice: Use your ears. If it sounds good to you, chances are, it'll sound good to others too. I recently got out of the habit of doing things "by the book" because my tracks sounded like absolute crap! Just remember to cut the mids (250-800khz) on everything to make the overall sound clearer.

3, 2, 1...wonder how much time before they eat you alive...

quote:

Originally posted by kosmotika The best advice you will ever get will be the simplest advice: Use your ears. If it sounds good to you, chances are, it'll sound good to others too.

....unless your monitoring system sucks and is deceiving your ears. It happens a lot.

Keep things round. Use a low pass filter with a sub and just listen to the bass region.it should have a very slight bounce but relatively uniform. This region is not really heard with ear buds and is exponentially amplified with loud pas.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik ....unless your monitoring system sucks and is deceiving your ears. It happens a lot.

This. At least personal experience, which first it seems its allright i can make it happen with this and when you start to buffer your recorded audio it does not pack any punch.

So if you dont have top tier/manageable gear there are times you just can't tell.

Thanks for all your replies! appreciate it alot! I already does those things like highpassing below 20 hz and all that, but it still sounds muddy / boomy.

Thats why I am wondering if keeping the bass in the higher range of the low region (100 - 250 Hz) and letting the kick take care of the lower part is good way to solve this. I have tried this but not sure yet.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceElevation 3, 2, 1...wonder how much time before they eat you alive...

See for yourself...first one was without cutting mids. Second has mids cut. Now, there isn't a *huge* difference, but you'll notice the individual sounds in the second one are more clear and the overall mix sounds a little less cluttered.
[[ LINK REMOVED ]]

Track is General Base - Rhythm & Drums btw

Here's a thread that explains what this is for: http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=277932

quote:

Originally posted by Domesty This. At least personal experience, which first it seems its allright i can make it happen with this and when you start to buffer your recorded audio it does not pack any punch. So if you dont have top tier/manageable gear there are times you just can't tell.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik ....unless your monitoring system sucks and is deceiving your ears. It happens a lot.

Yeah, apologies, guys...I've gotten so used to mastering on technics that I forgot a lot of people probably are doing their work on cheaper headphones / speakers. OP, if you get the chance, do get yourself some good headphones. I personally recommend the Technics RP-DH1200s; they're a bit pricey, around the $130-140usd range, but well worth it.

quote:

Originally posted by kosmotika See for yourself...first one was without cutting mids. Second has mids cut. Now, there isn't a *huge* difference, but you'll notice the individual sounds in the second one are more clear and the overall mix sounds a little less cluttered. [[ LINK REMOVED ]] Track is General Base - Rhythm & Drums btw Here's a thread that explains what this is for: http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=277932 Yeah, apologies, guys...I've gotten so used to mastering on technics that I forgot a lot of people probably are doing their work on cheaper headphones / speakers. OP, if you get the chance, do get yourself some good headphones. I personally recommend the Technics RP-DH1200s; they're a bit pricey, around the $130-140usd range, but well worth it.

Bro, you're taking me into deep waters. However I'll just mention that the first example sounds better to me. Your goal shouldn't be making things clearer, but rather balanced.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceElevation Bro, you're taking me into deep waters. However I'll just mention that the first example sounds better to me. Your goal shouldn't be making things clearer, but rather balanced.

On my older work, everyone would tell me to cut the mids to make it less muddy and all the tuts I read said this as well, so I just started removing all frequencies between 250-800. I guess that's just what I automatically do now to avoid having my songs sound messy like before.
Mastering has never been my strong suit...

quote:

Originally posted by kosmotika On my older work, everyone would tell me to cut the mids to make it less muddy and all the tuts I read said this as well, so I just started removing all frequencies between 250-800. I guess that's just what I automatically do now to avoid having my songs sound messy like before. Mastering has never been my strong suit...

What the fuck are you talking about?

Removing all the frequencies between 250-800? Will sound great if you want to remove the main content of most EDM tracks, not to mention mid bass (which is what most people think is the bassline of a track), the largest part of the vocal spectrum and nearly the lower third of just about any string instrument.

I would say engineering, producing and mixing are not really your strong suits judging by that statement.

So I guess RANN will be his executioner.

Well, meanwhile I'm taking the popcorns

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN What the fuck are you talking about? Removing all the frequencies between 250-800? Will sound great if you want to remove the main content of most EDM tracks, not to mention mid bass (which is what most people think is the bassline of a track), the largest part of the vocal spectrum and nearly the lower third of just about any string instrument. I would say engineering, producing and mixing are not really your strong suits judging by that statement.

>EDM

Also bass relies mostly on the low-end frequencies...that's the point of bass. First is with low end boosted, mids cut, second with mids there and no boost. Because that's how it's apparently supposed to be. [[ LINK REMOVED ]]

Jesus christ.
This is what I absolutely hate about some people on this site; talk a lot of crap but give little to no advice of your own and then expect anyone to know any better besides.

quote:

Originally posted by kosmotika On my older work, everyone would tell me to cut the mids to make it less muddy and all the tuts I read said this as well, so I just started removing all frequencies between 250-800. I guess that's just what I automatically do now to avoid having my songs sound messy like before. Mastering has never been my strong suit...

This treatment shouldn't generally be applied to the overall mix. Only if, for a given track, you realise that every single element would benefit from this treatment, would you do this.

Absolutely, some elements (pads typically, but frequently also lead elements) benefit from some well-placed cuts in that region - but again, it always depends on the exact sound you're dealing with, and where in the frequency range an EQ cut would benefit that sound in that mix, and how big a cut is appropriate.

The main part of the audible bass in most songs is in the midrange. The low frequencies are felt more than heard - if you neglect the midrange on the bass then in a lot of listening situations the bass is just going to disappear. The midrange is the most important part of a mix - without a strong midrange, a mix is going to be a lot quieter than it needs to be, and is just going to sound "thin" in a lot of listening situations.

In terms of the OP - there are great mixes where the bass registers the absolute lowest frequencies in the mix, there are great mixes where the kick does. There are mixes where they both operate fine down low. Our ears aren't much help down that low - when I'm checking out the low end I generally turn up the monitors and feel how the kick and bass are hitting me in the chest, and I'll adjust either element until the combination feels right physically. Frequency analysers can also help with the extreme low end which might be below what your speakers can reproduce. You can apply cuts to manage these frequencies (below 40 Hz), but again only cut as much as you need - there are club systems which will reproduce these low frequencies and your mix may sound weird if you cut them completely. Just because you've never felt these frequencies or are never planning to hear these frequencies doesn't mean that other listeners won't.

quote:

Originally posted by kosmotika >EDM Also bass relies mostly on the low-end frequencies...that's the point of bass. First is with low end boosted, mids cut, second with mids there and no boost. Because that's how it's apparently supposed to be. [[ LINK REMOVED ]] Jesus christ. This is what I absolutely hate about some people on this site; talk a lot of crap but give little to no advice of your own and then expect anyone to know any better besides.

you don't seem to understand the concept of mixing. It is a balancing act. Taking out the mids is what rookies do because they read about mud at 250 500 , 1000

This is also were character is. Your snare has lots of energy at 125 - 500. Taking that out in a minimal track will sound terrible.

And cutting the lows even if a speaker can play them is just a smart thing. It isn't anything that i would consider musical, it doesn't add anything but physical sensations. Why take a chance when only a few systems , generally run by people that don't know what they are doing. You don't go that low even if you can. Its just recipe for ruining shit. the only people that do it are those hippy dub step guys in the west of USA and ya, they are kinda weird and druggy.

quote:

Originally posted by kosmotika On my older work, everyone would tell me to cut the mids to make it less muddy and all the tuts I read said this as well, so I just started removing all frequencies between 250-800. I guess that's just what I automatically do now to avoid having my songs sound messy like before. Mastering has never been my strong suit...

careful with that! cutting everything between 250Hz and 800Hz - a lot of warmth in music comes from this area

Whats important is to not have loads going on here, just the right amount at the right level

edit: everyone else beat me to it

back to the OP:

mixing bass is not easy, a lot depends on your monitoring system/room to accurately hear whats going on

One thing i would say is that you never need as much bass as you might think

quote:

Originally posted by derail This treatment shouldn't generally be applied to the overall mix. Only if, for a given track, you realise that every single element would benefit from this treatment, would you do this. Absolutely, some elements (pads typically, but frequently also lead elements) benefit from some well-placed cuts in that region - but again, it always depends on the exact sound you're dealing with, and where in the frequency range an EQ cut would benefit that sound in that mix, and how big a cut is appropriate. The main part of the audible bass in most songs is in the midrange. The low frequencies are felt more than heard - if you neglect the midrange on the bass then in a lot of listening situations the bass is just going to disappear. The midrange is the most important part of a mix - without a strong midrange, a mix is going to be a lot quieter than it needs to be, and is just going to sound "thin" in a lot of listening situations. In terms of the OP - there are great mixes where the bass registers the absolute lowest frequencies in the mix, there are great mixes where the kick does. There are mixes where they both operate fine down low. Our ears aren't much help down that low - when I'm checking out the low end I generally turn up the monitors and feel how the kick and bass are hitting me in the chest, and I'll adjust either element until the combination feels right physically. Frequency analysers can also help with the extreme low end which might be below what your speakers can reproduce. You can apply cuts to manage these frequencies (below 40 Hz), but again only cut as much as you need - there are club systems which will reproduce these low frequencies and your mix may sound weird if you cut them completely. Just because you've never felt these frequencies or are never planning to hear these frequencies doesn't mean that other listeners won't.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney you don't seem to understand the concept of mixing. It is a balancing act. Taking out the mids is what rookies do because they read about mud at 250 500 , 1000 This is also were character is. Your snare has lots of energy at 125 - 500. Taking that out in a minimal track will sound terrible. And cutting the lows even if a speaker can play them is just a smart thing. It isn't anything that i would consider musical, it doesn't add anything but physical sensations. Why take a chance when only a few systems , generally run by people that don't know what they are doing. You don't go that low even if you can. Its just recipe for ruining shit. the only people that do it are those hippy dub step guys in the west of USA and ya, they are kinda weird and druggy.

quote:

Originally posted by evo8 careful with that! cutting everything between 250Hz and 800Hz - a lot of warmth in music comes from this area Whats important is to not have loads going on here, just the right amount at the right level edit: everyone else beat me to it

Thanks for the advice guys! Looney4Chooney is absolutely correct, the only reason I've been cutting mids for all tracks is that I've been reading all over that's what should be done or else your songs will sound terrible and that this is what sound engineers usually do.
I'll be sure to take what you guys have said into account. Funnily enough, I have been feeling like some of my songs are a little too clear lately...

Please show me where did you read to cut all the mids.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceElevation Please show me where did you read to cut all the mids.

All over, but the 2 I remember are this thread on TA: http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...99#.UxoUnvldWeY

And this guide (which has actually done wonders for my tracks): http://www.tranceproduction.com/tec...alization2.html

In fact, there's even a Gary D track from the early 90s called "Cut The Midrange" if I recall correctly.

First of all, I don't know how your first link qualifies as "everywhere" or "everyone" would tell me to, but is curious why you decided that a question, and not a certain affirmation, would translate as a "guide" to follow in your head. Also, just a little hint, the OP was referring to the eq curve of your final mixdown.

The second link, yes, is sort of a guide, but nowhere I've read the author inviting to cut all the mid frequencies.

And so, this 2 links are the reasons that made you think everywhere, everyone advices to cut all the mid frequencies?

quote:

Originally posted by clay there is a reason why bass used to be between the kicks and not simultaneously, because the hard house producers couldn't afford eqs and sidechain compressors, or didnt know how to use it, same as me. same as hiphop producers as well, they remove the melody when they rap and only put it in in the "refrain" where a slut is singing fuck me please.

The reason has nothing to do with engineering. The 4 on the floor leaves the bass able to in. Syncopated way.

In older rock music when the bass and kick did happen simultaneously the bass player learned to play , well they would call it in the middle if the beat or In the pocket too.

Dance music was not so loud that you could still have overlap and not kill a mix.

quote:

Originally posted by clay as you can see we are most sensitive to mid range hence more careful about boosting it. it just feels less exhausting with a lesser midrange mixed track.

And boring. You need a good balance. It is one of those things new producers do and it is prescriptive treatment they do without knowing why.

clay, don't post such graphs. Kosmotika might think it means he should cut all the mids.

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