TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Production Studio
-- Dorian & Phrygian modes
Pages (2): [1] 2 »

Dorian & Phrygian modes

Musical theorists....i need your assistance

Not good on scales/modes but learning bit by bit.

I know how to do Major scales/Minor scales - for minor scale, start on the root note, tone, semitone etc.. this applies no matter what the root note is, right?

What i was wondering was there are a pattern for Dorian/Phrygian modes in the same way? Or does it just depend on the root note all the time, something more complex?

there are a couple of useful bits on youtube, like this vid



he says this is a "white note scale" - does that apply to all root note positions? i.e. Would E Dorian use all white keys only?

Yes, the patterns of intervals for each of the Western modes are:

Ionian: T T S T T T S
Dorian: T S T T T S T
Phrygian: S T T T S T T
Lydian: T T T S T T S
Mixolydian: T T S T T S T
Aeolian: T S T T S T T
Locrian: S T T S T T T

T = Tone
S = Semitone

It doesn't matter which note you start on, the intervals are always the same for these modes. e.g., A Dorian:

A B C D E F# G [A]

Yays theory thread, i have the question for the grand masters. When making a track how do you pick a rote note and which type of instrument do you use to start it with? The bass? THe lead? Or idk i'm lost.

I'm sicking of having all my tracks in A#

I just put my hands on the keyboard and play.

Musicianship ftw.

Haha hell yea

What Geoff said.

Sometimes, I start with melody in my head, other times I start with a chord progression on the piano, other times I start with a guitar or bass. The important point, though, is that this is composition/songwriting, not theory. Plenty of musicians can write songs without employing a lot of music theory knowledge.

As for the key, it's pretty much semi-random for me. But, since I usually end up having vocals in my tracks, the key often gets transposed up or down to keep the melody in the singer's range, or we sometimes change the melody, if necessary, to keep the original key and make sure that it's within the singer's range. That said, if it's a pop/rock-song with real guitars and bass, I usually keep it in a key that's relatively easy to play - not many guitarists (esp. a hack like myself) like to play in Bb minor.

I see thanks for the input homies.

I'm not putting a downer on theory as it has it's uses, but a lot of those uses are describing what you're doing to somebody that already knows what they're doing.

Actually learning to read music and play an instrument is THE key to all this stuff, it just takes the longest to learn so most people don't bother.

One of my favorite ways to know the notes of scales I don't know, is to look in Animoog on iOS, if you go to the kb scale tab, you can pick the scale you want and it shows you the notes in that scale. Pretty handy. I know some theory, but I don't know every scale, and it can be useful to quickly learn the notes of scales I don't know to try to get different sounds I haven't tried before.

cryophonik is correct, the intervals are always the same. Here is a tool I made to help:
http://nickfever.com/music/scale-finder

A, and C are very popular keys. You could always transpose after you compose, or just pick one new key to learn and familiarize yourself with.

As far as where to start, it could be a bass line, melody or chord progression... sometimes even a drum loop. I would suggest not getting to tied to what you start with. It may evolve into something else. You may need to delete the part that you started with. "You may have to remove a good part to make a great song." (Can't remember who said that.) Anyhow, acceot that thatpart what a catalyst to get your creative juices flowing...

Summary, start with bass, chor progression or melody, and don't be afraid to remove parts.

HTH,
Nick

Re: Dorian & Phrygian modes

quote:

Originally posted by evo8 he says this is a "white note scale" - does that apply to all root note positions? i.e. Would E Dorian use all white keys only?

Sorry, just noticed this question. No, E Dorian would not use all white keys - it would be: E F# G A B C# D [E]

The "white note scale" is really just a point of reference. If you start on any key and play white keys up/down an octave, you will be playing one of the seven modes. Don't get hung up on the white keys, though. The intervals are what's important.

That said, another way that may work for you is to think of the modes in terms of how they relate to another major scale, and the white keys may help here. You can think of Dorian as having the same notes as the major scale that is one whole-step lower (e.g., D Dorian has the same notes as C major, E Dorian has the same notes as a D major scale, G# Dorian has the same notes as an F# major scale, etc.). Then, you can think of Phrygian mode as having the same notes as the major scale that is two whole steps lower, Lydian mode having the same notes as the major scale a perfect fourth lower, etc. That may or may not be helpful to you, but it's always been easier for me to remember them that way than it is to remember the succession of tones and semi-tones, which become more difficult to keep track of if you're moving in larger intervals.

ive been learning Dominant V progs, and subdomninatn etc and 7th chords laately, check those out, good for house, Maj7 chords

There are a lot of handy little tools online to help you quickly get the notes in a specific scale.
Most of you wil know Chord House - Piano Room.

But there is one more which people might overlook � Wolfram|Alpha � which is very good IMO.
To use your example, E Dorian:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Dorian+mode+on+E
It�ll even show you the frequency of each note!

Wolfram|Alpha is a very powerful knowledge engine, which even has a whole section dedicated to music theory with some great examples:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/examples/MusicTheory.html

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Yes, the patterns of intervals for each of the Western modes are: Ionian: T T S T T T S Dorian: T S T T T S T Phrygian: S T T T S T T Lydian: T T T S T T S Mixolydian: T T S T T S T Aeolian: T S T T S T T Locrian: S T T S T T T T = Tone S = Semitone It doesn't matter which note you start on, the intervals are always the same for these modes. e.g., A Dorian: A B C D E F# G [A]

exactly what i was looking for, thanks!!! and also thanks to everyone else for their inputs too

quote:

Originally posted by nickfever cryophonik is correct, the intervals are always the same. Here is a tool I made to help: http://nickfever.com/music/scale-finder

I just checked this out. It's a good idea, but you have some major problems with your scale finder, specifically the scale degrees (i.e., letter designations for notes). It breaks the most fundamental rules of music theory by skipping some scale degrees and repeating other scale degrees using enharmonic equivalents. But that is incorrect and problematic. Examples:

C# Major: your scale finder returns: C# D# F F# G# A# C C#

This is not correct because it repeats the fourth (i.e., F and F#) and eighth (i.e., C and C#) scale degrees, but skips the third (i.e., a scale degree based on "E", in this case E#) and seventh (i.e., a scale degree based on "B", in this case B#).

The C# Major scale is actually: C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#

The key signature has 7 sharps - one for each of the seven scale degrees (see your circle of fifths). Using your notes, there could be no iii (E# min) or vii (B# dim) chords. Instead you would have two different forms if the first scale degree (i.e., a I and a i-dim based on C# and C, respectively) and two different forms of the fourth scale degree (i.e., one based on F and another based on F#).

Another example is your C# melodic minor, which your scale finder identifies as: C# D# E F# G# A# C C#

This one has no seventh scale degree (i.e., based on "B"), but has two notes based on the first scale degree (i.e., C and C#). The correct notes are: C# D# E F# G# A# B# C#

This isn't just semantics. Triads, chord extensions, chord naming, the circle of fifths, sharps/flats, accidentals, etc. all depend on the correct usage of scale degrees.

EDIT: looking at it further, no offense but it's just awful. You completely skipped all the flat keys, and many of your sharp keys are not even close (e.g., A#). I highly suggest taking it down. It's misleading and will only confuse people who are already confused enough.

Cryo, what can you tell me about "B" Phrygian?

quote:

Originally posted by TranceElevation Cryo, what can you tell me about "B" Phrygian?

B C D E F# G A B

What more do you need to know?

Do you know any famous track using it?

Btw, I'm curious what mode/scales are these two. They have kinda similar vibe.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceElevation Do you know any famous track using it?

Not offhand. I don't listen to much popular music, and Phrygian isn't really widely used in pop music, aside from some metal, industrial, etc. You could Google it.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceElevation Btw, I'm curious what mode/scales are these two. They have kinda similar vibe.

I'm at work, so I can't figure it out. They're both in minor, based on a quick listen to a few minutes of each one. I'd guess based on my not-so-perfect pitch that the first one is Bmin and the second one is Dmin. Sit down at your keyboard and figure it out. It's not that hard to do.

Hm..."Southern Sun" might actually be exactly in "B" Phrygian.
By playing on the keyboard while listening the song "B" definitely felt at home, but "F#" also. All the other black keys felt horrible. Seems "B" phrygian to me. But I'm not really good at it. If you have any free time and will would be great if you could confirm it.

edit: hm, but "F#" sounds so much at home also. Can't really tell honestly.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceElevation Hm..."Southern Sun" might actually be exactly in "B" Phrygian. By playing on the keyboard while listening the song "B" definitely felt at home, but "F#" also. All the other black keys felt horrible. Seems "B" phrygian to me. But I'm not really good at it. If you have any free time and will would be great if you could confirm it.

The F# is found in both minor (Aeolian) and Phrygian. The only difference between the two is the second scale degree. B minor (Aeolian) has a C# (B C# D E F# G A B), whereas B Phrygian has a C-natural. Otherwise, the notes in each scale/mode are identical. If the C# sounds out of place and the C-natural sounds right, then it's Phrygian.

Listening to it again, I think you might be right. I don't hear the typical Amaj (VII), F#maj (V), or F#min chord that you would typically hear in B minor and it does sound more modal with what I think is a major II chord that is characteristic of Phrygian, so it might be B Phrygian (that is, if the root is actually B - it was just a guess).

Yeah, the C# sounds completely out of place.

You know, I was curious cause what I noticed is that most of my projects (those I really care) have their melody all in Phrygian (B, E) or Aeolian mode (D mainly). I don't know what that might suggest you, but for some reason my soul is attracted to these modes/chords/melody.
Like, usually I work out my melodies from chord progressions and it turns out most of the time I end up on Phrygian or Aeolian mode. It just attracts me. It represents me in a way.

Most of the modes/scales sound too light or not enough deep/mysterious/enigmatic for my taste. Although have to say A minor is not bad as well, but those two are really representing me.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceElevation Hm..."Southern Sun" might actually be exactly in "B" Phrygian. By playing on the keyboard while listening the song "B" definitely felt at home, but "F#" also. All the other black keys felt horrible. Seems "B" phrygian to me. But I'm not really good at it. If you have any free time and will would be great if you could confirm it. edit: hm, but "F#" sounds so much at home also. Can't really tell honestly.

It starts off in Bm, then for the chorus it moves to D, those are the roots, I mean the D is I, and the Bm is vi [D=I Em=ii F#m=iii G=IV A=V Bm=vi C#dim=vii]

the bassline in Bm, its a vi to vii movement, but its a minor 7th, which means the 7th note (C#dim of Dmajor scale) of the regular normal major scale (Ionian) is dropped a half tone....which means......the bassline is in.......drumrollll.........mixolodian. D mixolodian that is....which is the same as B Phrygian, so more correctly, the bassline is B Phrygian, because once it modulates to the Bm, it wants to resolve to the new root of Bm.....instead of Dmajor

so you can think of it also as a modulation from D mixolodian/B phrygian to D Ionian.......in terms of modes........or you can think of it like Bminor (with a flat 2nd) to Dmajor



the intoxicate one....it modulates between the keys of Dm and F........regular scales no prhyrigian or anything i dont think...

confused?
btw, youre right it is B PHRYGIAN, sorry almost forgot to write that lol, but this explains the music theory behind what your ears are telling you.

cheers

I cheat with a lot of this stuff myself.

You can use something like the schwarzinator or most piano roll interfaces to confine your note input to just about any scale you can think of. Then you can transpose between them freely to explore different options with respect to feel etc. Using a sound to midi tool like aubio, you can sing a melody from your head and get it into the computer with very little knowledge of instruments or theory and then whip out the chord tool of your choice to pick your favorite from a menu of possible harmonies. Sure, it is better to learn an instrument, but nobody is grading you so you may as while cheat in the meantime. Most of the shit I just mentioned is available legally for free.

What I generally start with is a melody or baseline in my head, I sing it into my machine then find a few scales that fit it. I use a chord helper to plop out some pads, then I extend my melody with variations that (mostly) fit within the chord structure. I play with the transpose a bit and then the musical part is done and it's on to knob twiddling.

If you absolutely must use commercial tools though, melodyne will map anything into notes, Cthulhu will let you cheat with chords, most sequencers let you highlight the portion of the piano roll that fits the scale of your choice.

yeah i use J74 Progressive, its a Max 4 Live plugin, helps with chord progressions and scales

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.