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-- What to do with Africa?

What to do with Africa?

While we're all using internet, watching TV's and using all the other things science offers, Africa is almost totally excluded. So far, the white presence in Africa (which began about 500 years ago?) has been harmful to that continent (slavery, putting rival tribes in the same nation, ...)

Is there a solution?

In my opinion, white people should "clean up" all the mess they've done in the continent and leave. We like to think that we're developed and that we should teach other civilizations to behave like us, but they were a lot better without our "knowledge". We caused unnecessary wars and hunger, did it help them?

The developed nations could do what they did to Germany and Japan after the WWII and help Africa as well, but wouldn't it cause even more problems?

What do you guys think of it? Please, prove me wrong

Can't I edit my own posts!? Anyway, i just wanted to make clear that I'm talking about the Black africa here (excluding the mediterranian countries and the massive dutch presence in South Africa)

interesting that you said, "what to do with africa"... who are we, and what could we do that could "help"?....

quote:

Originally posted by trancedfarmer interesting that you said, "what to do with africa"... who are we, and what could we do that could "help"?....

We're the brats (is it ok to use this word?) of those who got the continent into this mess. There were developed civilizations there, you know?

quote:

the massive dutch presence in South Africa

WTF! We lived in piece with the natives, until British army forced the poor Dutch farmers to live in their territory.

quote:

Originally posted by jploveparade WTF! We lived in piece with the natives, until British army forced the poor Dutch farmers to live in their territory.

That's why I'm EXCLUDING you guys You're fine

I thought you found us even worse than the Spanish, French and German imperialists in Africa

Although "apartheid" is a Dutch word

Re: What to do with Africa?

quote:

Originally posted by Maaz In my opinion, white people should "clean up" all the mess they've done in the continent and leave. We like to think that we're developed and that we should teach other civilizations to behave like us, but they were a lot better without our "knowledge". We caused unnecessary wars and hunger, did it help them?

I agree with you, except I do not think "we" should "clean up" as this will most likely do even more damage. In my view we should seal ourselves (the west) from the continent and let the people find their own way through civilization development - both when that road takes them through the ups and the downs.

On a different note, the logic "our ancestors hurt Africa, we must make amends" suffer from two faults IMO. First of all there's the question of whether guilt can be inherited: if your dad kills mine and then dies, am I entitled to kill you? And where to draw the line - crimes dating back 100 years? 500 years? 20000 years? In the latter case, we could argue that the people of Syria/Iraq is really to blame for all the crap that is taking place in the world today, and should pay for everything.
Furthermore, there's the question of whether you *can* make amends. The people living in Mongolia today is hardly in a position where they can pay for what Djenghis Khan did years ago, but is incompetence in administering wealth as a nation an excuse for not making amends?

The second fault connected to the aforementioned logic, is whether or not the ancestors of the west today really is solely to blame for the state of Africa today? "The white man" did awful things elsewhere in the world, but not all places are still plagued by wars on a regular basis. And according to one of my history books African tribes were responsible for plundering and enslaving other Africans during the colonial period - "the white man" was certainly enticing them but does that necessarily mean he is solely to blame?

Harper's August issue had a great article addressing this topic; it's called "Making a Killing" for those interested.

The main jist the article wanted to get across is that thorwing money and aid by opening and promoting trade is not going to fix anything, as this simply will add to the already present chaos and drive certain groups to continue fighthing civil wars. Wars that most of us have probably never heard anything about in the media.

I think most of the world doesn't want western influence or help at the moment, I think the west (this includes you Europeans as well) should keep its nose out of places that dont concern it. Africa isn't Iraq, it should be left alone to heal after the damage european colonialism has cause it.

I also think we should stop exporting western movies & culture to the third world. Violent hollywood movies are giving other countries a decadent & disgusting image of who we are in the western world.

Re: Re: What to do with Africa?

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic In my view we should seal ourselves (the west) from the continent and let the people find their own way through civilization development - both when that road takes them through the ups and the downs.

i agree with you.
you cant force someone to get better, they have to want to get better themselves. its has to come from within, not from an outsider. thats why Peacful warrior said, pumping money there will not really solve anything, not until they have set up some way that they can use it to help themselves.

its either letting them solve their own problems or us taking a much stronger approach then we are currently and actually intervene in the political affairs of the countries and the setting up new governments for each country, that we think would serve the country best. but that might be impossibly hard to do, will probably cost a lot and may even spill lots more blood, so im still for the first approach.

hmmm....having the "white man" clean up the mess he made in Africa, sounds like another type of "white man's burden". Wat up Rudyard Kipling.

Anyways, I am of the opinion that we need to let time for Africa to grow. It will someday be at least a respectible continent (oh God I hope so) in terms of standard of living, health issues, etc. but it will take time. Unlike most of Asia (Taiwan, Singapore, South Korea, Thailand, Malaysia all having developed very rapidly) Africa is hindered by its colonial past (though not totally) and the fact that it has just never been given much of a chance to grow.
First off, Africa needs peace and political stability. From peace and political stability all things will proceed. But until then, the continent will remain in disarray.

The problems with africa are many and varied depending on the region, almost invariably it comes down to economic issues.

To be blunt the west quite literally strangles the third world with "free trade" and debt.

1)Abolishing the debt goes only part of the way but would be an excellent start.

2)Africa should be exempt from free trade rules as laid down by the WTO which are neither free nor fair.

3)Countries that have IMF advisors not just in africa, should kick them out, the IMF policies of strict budget austerity and market liberalisation are absolute poison to developing countries. They never work, NEVER. Yet the West forces it on the third world.

4) Western money that is spent on farm subsidies particularly the USA and EU should be spent on halting desertification and land degredation in Africa. Africa can only compete in the supply of minerals and agriculture, but they are up against inefficient farmers in the west who get handouts in the form of subsidies from corrupt politicians.

5) Money should be directed towards AIDS prevention and education. Often the case is that african governments divert resources from vital social programs into 1)paying off debt, 2) maintaining currency reserves to shore up their currency if the money markets turn against them, 3) corrupt and wasteful expenditure on weapons- supplied by the west or sometimes on siphoning the money into foreign bank accounts.

6) Africa should form a trading block, start small and build from there

7) Programs should be instituted by the West into proper goverance, many of the african countries are riven by tribalism, cronyism and corruption. Western universities should sponsor millions of africans to learn proper financial management and governence standards.

8) this will in turn lead to the most important thing for development which is investment. Investors looking for places to spend their money want a degree of security that their factory or refinery or whatever isnt going to be blown to bits in a war or its workers wont get murdered on the way to work in some tribal dispute.

I have mixed feelings about this.

Before I came to South Africa I had this idea that the whole world is trying very hard to build for our futures and that pollution is reduced as much as possible (doh, that's idealistic i know), that people are being treated about equally, because we are a civilized world. Ofcourse I knew that this situation didn't exist everywhere.

However, I'm in South Africa now and the situation here scares me!

• pollution is incredible! shit lying aruond everywhere...
  
• difference between black and white is huge!
  
• poverty is still very much present...
  
• aswell as racism...
  
• people seem reluctant to change.
  

Proxi, you should become United Nations Africa representant.

oh one more thing.

Apartheid is indeed a Dutch word. From what I've read the Portuguese were first to set foot in South Africa, because they wanted a point there to anchor their ships and get new supplies for their continued trip to asia.
They didn't interfere with the locals, as those people didn't live near the coast at that point.

The Dutch did the same thing. They settled near Cape Town (which wasn't yet Cape Town then). When the British came, the Dutch moved inlands. Both British and Dutch people used black people as slaves.
The British were more progressive than the Dutch and tried to make some laws to enable black people to have some rights. The Dutch were very racistic and denied their slaves of any rights.
WHen the British tried to force their politics onto the Dutch they moved inlands, making sure the Xhoisan people had some land for them (stealing the land I believe)

Anyhow...there are many Dutch, British and German descendents here and I feel they are all equally being racists Which means some are, some aren't...heh

We should undo what they want us to undo (In each country), then take the attitude we should have in the beginning, offer help. Forcing help becomes racist dictation.

Re: What to do with Africa?

quote:

Originally posted by Maaz In my opinion, white people should "clean up" all the mess they've done in the continent and leave. We like to think that we're developed and that we should teach other civilizations to behave like us, but they were a lot better without our "knowledge". We caused unnecessary wars and hunger, did it help them?

why shud the white people leave?? originally it were black people who originated in America. Shud every white person in America get up and leave? no i dont think so. Division between blacks and whites isnt going to help nething.

And i think ur choice of words in the title thread is a little devestating to the arguement in ur post. The fact that u say "yea we shud leave em to it, coz at the end of the day its their country, and we shud stop causing problems over there, etc.." But at the same time ur choice of words in the title seem to suggest the Africans are our responsibilty, and its up to us whether we toss them aside like a piece of shit, or help them, or tell em to fuck off, etc. etc.

Sorry for any grammatical errors its getting late..

Mike

Re: Re: What to do with Africa?

quote:

Originally posted by Miss Proximus Apartheid is indeed a Dutch word. From what I've read the Portuguese were first to set foot in South Africa, because they wanted a point there to anchor their ships and get new supplies for their continued trip to asia.

However, as far as I recall it, after some time Portuguese brought black people to Brazil so we could have more slaves here ( the native indians weren't enough ). Anyway, that was a very cool speech, golden locks

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike And i think ur choice of words in the title thread is a little devestating to the arguement in ur post.

That's because my English is getting worse lately (gotta do something about it ). Anyway, what I meant is: Africa was totally fine before the European Imperialism arrived there. Did they have their problems!? Obviously, but Imperialism only got it worse. That's why I thought there was no way back... and started this thread

if you havent been to africa, you probably dont know what your talking about.

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