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Israel or Palestine?

After much debate in the chill out room this year regarding this unfortunate conflict in the middle east.. whats your official stance on the situation? I for one hope that both sides live in peace... but i do not agree with the agressive and murderous tactics that the Isreali army utilizes to "weed out terroists"....I feel for the Palestinians who have to defend themselves with rocks.... yet i do not agree with the suicide bombings that certain vulnerable and ignorant youths carry out in the name of "Allah". In any event.. innocent people are dying... most of them Palestinians... and that is what concerns me the most. In my opinion, the Isreali army is just as bad as any other "military super power" and should re-evaluate the value of a life. Hate breeds hate.

I have a lot more to write... but i will leave that in the discussion to follow within the thread.

Your Opinions?

Re: Isreal or Palestine?

oh boy, here we go

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King After much debate in the chill out room this year regarding this unfortunate conflict in the middle east.. whats your official stance on the situation?

my official stance: i think that the palestinians should and will have a country of their own in the future, however not under the current regime and not until everything has been done to remove any trace of the terror organizations that reign freely there; islamic jihad, hamas, hizbollah, al-aqsa martyr brigades, fatah, tanzim, etc. (ya i know the list is long, guess it serves a point).

quote:

but i do not agree with the agressive and murderous tactics that the Isreali army utilizes to "weed out terroists"....

i do agree. although some of the tactics used by the IDF (israeli defense forces) are contraverial and there are a few cases which deserve repremand (as in all wars) we have seen that a peaceful way out has not worked (see years 1992 to 2000). the result is that israel has to take a more agressive approach to defend its citizens. furthermore i dont think any other country in the world faces as much threat from terrorism as israel does. the worse the threat the stronger one has to try to wipe out that threat. the IDF is attacking in reaction to terror and not the other way around. one must never appease terror or give in to their demands. None of these "agressive and murderous" taken by the IDF would even be happening if there wasnt the element of terror. i political solution to this should be talked through negotiations and diplomacy

quote:

I feel for the Palestinians who have to defend themselves with rocks....

i dont. instead of venting his misguided anger on israel, which has been brainwashed into him since he was a little boy, i would much rather see him vent out agianst his governing body, the same one that holds little to no freedom of speach, does little to nothing to stop terrorism, and has not provided for him a peaceful and economically positive future

quote:

In any event.. innocent people are dying... most of them Palestinians... and that is what concerns me the most.

i havent checked the statistics in the past two months or so but last time i checked, the precentage of innocent civilians killed vs. militants/military personal, was much much higher on the israeli side. thus showing that the targets of palestinian terror are the civlians while the targets of the IDF are militants.

btw i hope you guys dont mind me quoting often and answering that specific part. its not that i scrutinize everything someone say but rather easier for me to organize my thoughts and how to say them one by one.

the damm suicide bombers need to quit blowing themselves on busses clubs and such...i cant imagine how such incidents affect someone like Gil Swartz, an Israely member on this board who dj's at clubs in Israel. fukking crazy...otherwise ill keep the rest of my thoughts to myself cos ill get in trouble.

>JM<

I'm fairly biased because I am Jewish, and lived in israel for part of my life, so of course if there's only going to be one country I'd want it to be Israel.

The real problem is, you can't split it into two countries. It will never work, both sides have way too much pride, and there are area's were they can not compromise. Certain area's that have religous importance to both groups etc. I wish it would stop though, Its really hard sometimes when I here about a bombing, and then go right to the phone and call like 30 people and see if there all ok. And it's obviouslly even harder for them.

Sadly, I don't see any end to this conflict in the near future, probably not even in my lifetime either.

I can't help but see the entire conflict as a circle of violence - each retaliates against the other in an unending spiral. I know it's difficult to take a stand when your citizens are being killed and homes destroyed, but one side or the other needs to step back and realise that by retaliating, it only invites further retaliations for the retaliation.

For gods sake! The place is more than big enough for the two nations to live in.

They'r not even that different. pickout a palastinian and an israeli youth at random and spend some times with them, you'll see.

That's not the problem. Behind every war, Behind every conflic there's someone's economical interest! The Palastine freak show is a front for the U.S Government to creap it's way in closer to the oil wells. Nothing else to it! Where do you think Israel got it's might army from?

have you even seen some of the guys in the Israely army?
Young kids most of them!!
They shoot some kid they used to play with when they were five, the kids dad straps crap to himself and blows some other kid and the cycle keeps going.
In the middle you have fucking corporations using the conflic to take oil prices up and down and what have you.

Give me a break, the poor Israelies and Plastinians are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It aint THEIR war! the war was taken to them!

quote:

Originally posted by Illusion That's not the problem. Behind every war, Behind every conflic there's someone's economical interest! The Palastine freak show is a front for the U.S Government to creap it's way in closer to the oil wells. Nothing else to it! Where do you think Israel got it's might army from? In the middle you have fucking corporations using the conflic to take oil prices up and down and what have you. Give me a break, the poor Israelies and Plastinians are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It aint THEIR war! the war was taken to them!

i dont know if you knew this but there is absolutely no oil in israel or the occupied territories. israel has to get its oil from the US rather then from the persian gulf which is much closer. oil plays no part in this war, IMHO.

also i think the whole 'circle of violence' is a bunch of crap. if theres no palestinian terror, there will be no israeli military action. if there is terror, the army will do its best so that it wont happen agian and hence no more violence (not yet achieved)... kinda simple, no real circle there.

Not talking about oil in Israel. But close enough, to the middle east anyhow. And besides the whole suicide bombing is a reasonably new phonamenon. Far more recent than the conflict itself anyway.

Lets face it. The two nations are just tools in the hands of others.
A multinational peacekeeping force could have interfered long ago but you don't see that do you? Ofcourse not! Where ever there's war there's profits to be made.

quote:

Originally posted by Illusion For gods sake! The place is more than big enough for the two nations to live in. They'r not even that different. pickout a palastinian and an israeli youth at random and spend some times with them, you'll see. That's not the problem. Behind every war, Behind every conflic there's someone's economical interest! The Palastine freak show is a front for the U.S Government to creap it's way in closer to the oil wells.

what oil wells, I never heard of any oil wells in Palastine?

The issue itself is a difficult one. Palastinians and Israels have to want peace if there is to be peace, but then you have others that want to maintain the status quo of violence. I dont think Arafat or Israel at the moment is really committed to peace when it comes to decisions made behind closed doors. They seemed to be trying for a couple of years in the late 90's though, but it broke down.

quote:

Originally posted by Illusion For gods sake! The place is more than big enough for the two nations to live in. They'r not even that different. pickout a palastinian and an israeli youth at random and spend some times with them, you'll see.

First of all difrentiating between Israli's and Palistinians is very easy. Secondly not only is Israel a very, very small country, but even if it was big enough to support 2 states, there's no way that the 2 groups can both get the area's they want.

i dont really know enough about this to have an 'official' stance...
i keep hearing about palistinian suicide bombings, but there has to be something provoking them? doesnt there? i thought israel was...'created' by the UN? after WW2? so other countries had to give up room for them? is that what part of the fighting is about? settlers from 1 nation in the other's land? sometimes i think though everyone should leave them alone and let them blow themselves up, but thats a little extreme i guess if you have an area that is very important to different religions, who have extremists on both sides, then of course things will get hostile. i guess when those extremists cant accept the other people wanting to go to the same place, then there'll be trouble. especially if the extremists are high up in the decision making, or start blowing up people. hmm. i hope that wasn't too incoherent, its late

I beleive part of the reason why these suicide bombers exist is because they are driven to insanity in part after seeing Israeli tanks and guns blow up their families and friends...And to those who agree that its worth killing Palestinians to "weed out terrorists".... you are no worse than a terrorist yourself... a life is a life....as said before... we all bleed the same colour.

quote:

Originally posted by Illusion Not talking about oil in Israel. But close enough, to the middle east anyhow. And besides the whole suicide bombing is a reasonably new phonamenon. Far more recent than the conflict itself anyway.

even though its been over 10 years since they started bombing themselves like that, which really isnt that new of a thing considering the PLO have been in power for only 33 years.
there is a long line of history of terrorism from arabs agianst jews in israel, starting as soon as the ottoman empire fell apart. some examples:
in 1929 arab rioting agianst jews in hebron left 133 jews dead and 399 injured.
in 1955 egyptian president Nasser sent out 'fedayeen' to "cleanse the land of Palestine... there will be no peace on israel's boarder because we demand vengeance and vengeance is Israel's death" [Middle Easter Affairs - 1956 pg 461]. those 'heros' ended up murdering and sabotaging the lives of many irsaeli citizens
in 1967 prior to the six day war, syrian arabs bombed and sniped at israeli farming communities near the boarder
and maybe the true first suicide attack on a bus that i can find was committed in 1978 when a group of PLO terrorists hijacked a civilian bus and ended up killing 34 hostages before being killed themselves.

quote:

Where ever there's war there's profits to be made.

ok lets analyze that to both sides.

what does israel have to gain by prolonging this war?
a bad and suffering economy
citizens living in daily threat and afraid to go out in public
pro-longing the need for all citizens to get drafted

what do the palestinians have to gain by prolonging this war?
focusing the attention of the world on their 'plight'
creating a secure base for terrorist organizations, without fearing punishment
trying to get more weight on there side as to gain the better part of a peace deal

the palestinians defininately have more to gain from prolonging this 'war'.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King I beleive part of the reason why these suicide bombers exist is because they are driven to insanity in part after seeing Israeli tanks and guns blow up their families and friends...

no, i dont care how insane you are, there is no justification for committing such acts. ironically, 'families and friends' would not be blown up by tanks and guns if there was no terror in the first case. so why even do it? he is only insuring this will continue.
it makes no sense, i guess that would explain his insanity

quote:

And to those who agree that its worth killing Palestinians to "weed out terrorists".... you are no worse than a terrorist yourself... a life is a life....as said before... we all bleed the same colour.

i agree that palestinians who use terror agianst civilians as a valid military option should be killed. civilians may get killed in the proccess but that is neither a want or desired outcome. No where can you prove that is was the intention of the IDF to kill innocent civilians, which is not the case with some palestinians.

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy no, i dont care how insane you are, there is no justification for committing such acts. ironically, 'families and friends' would not be blown up by tanks and guns if there was no terror in the first case. so why even do it? he is only insuring this will continue. it makes no sense, i guess that would explain his insanity

I think you're oversimplifying here, both sides are causing the conflict to continue.

Just as there's no justification for suicide attacks there are no justifications for continued oppression of the Palestinians (ie: that which initially causes people to go nuts and blow themselves up), or attacks on their compounds in response to the suicide attacks.

The conflict has been going on for a long time, and it's going to take a monumental breakthrough for it to end IMHO, but taking sides is just crazy at this point, both sides are wrong, because both sides are causing the deaths of innocent civilians.

I don't care for Arafat, but I don't care for Sharon either, I think they're both contributing to the conflict. I understand that if you're a Jew, or an Muslim, or from the area that you're naturally going to have an opinion, but as an outsider I can see with *very clear* eyes that there *aren't any clean hands* in that conflict.

Instead of worrying about laying blame the parties involved should worry about fixing the problems that cause the continued violence, but because of the long history involved I just don't see any breakthroughs forthcoming, especially with Sharon and Arafat in command.

quote:

Originally posted by CortexBomb I think you're oversimplifying here, both sides are causing the conflict to continue. Just as there's no justification for suicide attacks there are no justifications for continued oppression of the Palestinians (ie: that which initially causes people to go nuts and blow themselves up), or attacks on their compounds in response to the suicide attacks.

true, although it might be a simplification it in no way strays from the truth. the 'oppression' that has caused these recent acts of terror has only gone on for just over two years (since camp david accords failed in 2000). after the 1992 olso accords were signed, there was NO oppression in most of the occupied territories. the PLO had complete autonomus control in public affairs (schools, taxes, etc) and control over security in alsmot 40% of the land and had control of public affairs and shared control of security with israel in another roughly 30% of the land. so to say that palesinians have been living in an opressed society for decades is a flat of myth. yet despite this there was still terror.
so to use the israel 'oppression' as the problem to the terrorism is nothing more then an excuse

I think the Palestinians ought to leave. If you're kidnapped from your house and enslaved, and you escape and return 5 years later to find someone else has been squatting on your land, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask them to leave.

Giving the Palestinians their own state is absolutely preposterous. The best way to prevent terrorism is by ensuring that groups that commit it never achieve that which they desire. If we give the Palestinians anything, we only further legitimize terrorism as a mechanism to bring about sociopolitical change. We do NOT want to do this.

The Native Americans have FAR more a legitimate claim to an independent state or states than the palestinians do, but giving the palestinians one just because they blow people up would set a horrendous precedent. That is not the example a civilized world ought to be trying to set.

As a result, while I sympathize with the plight of the Palestinian people, I can't support them in any way so long as many of them continue to employ such tactics.

where do you want 5-6 millions people to go?

why don't israel just gaz every palestinian? it would be easier and faster. I heard that the US had extra reserves of lethal gaz...

1+1=2



























































idiot

my question to the IL side : why not let the UN go there ?


*edit*

and by the way i've read some things here that really shook the inside of me , i don't need to quote them or answer them since i consider it bull manure ... (it's not u Izzy don't worry)

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 my question to the IL side : why not let the UN go there ?

3 things:
the UN's behavior before the 6 days war (leaving Sinai and make place for Nasser's troops)
the UN's behavior after and actually DURING the kidnapping of israeli soldiers at the lebanese border 2 years ago (watching passively and even FILMING it, and on top of that denying everything in order to keep the "neutral position")
the UN's general attitude towards the conflict and Israel in particular (no other country has recieved so many attacking and condeming resolutions, for every little incident Syria calls the UN General Assembly with yet another resolution "calling for an end of Israeli agression" passed, thereby totally ignoring its actualy reasons: palestinian terrorsim and violence)
The UN was also dumb enough to openly proclaim their anti-israeli position in the 1970's when the Jewish ideology Zionism was officially declared as "racist".

Bravo! That's the neutral partner we need

Everyone ignoring the fact that today's inscrease of golbal terrorism is not related to the "experimental field" Israel is by the way dumb naive or both. It's simple: iranians syrians iraquis and saudis support and in some cases pay and organize palestinian terrorism, they see its effects on the Israel-Palestinian relationship and the "feedback" by the Western world and draw conclusions: Yes, its worthy

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 my question to the IL side : why not let the UN go there ?

well as people have found out, i dont hold the UN to any value. but let me give you some more specific reasons with regards to israel to prove why the UN sucks

* In order to be on the UN security council you have to be a member of a regional group. Arab countries have barred israel from joining the asian group. and although in may 2000 israel accepted an invitation to be a temporary member of the Western Europe and Others (WEOG) reginal group, it still has no access to have any say on the security council.

* in 1974 resolution 3379 slandered Zionism (the jewish nationalist movement) by branding it as a form of rasicm. it was only repealed in 1991 and I think it was about two years ago in a UN summit in south africe that the word zionism was almost equated to racism agian, luckly that didnt pass because of strong US pressure. and it was only in Nov 1998, 50 years after the founding of the UN that the word anti-semetism appeared in a UN resolution.

* Of all of the condemnations that The Commission on Human Rights has put forth, 26% refer to israel alone (!!!) and yet rouge states like syria and libya have never been critized.

* both the madrid (1991) and oslo peace accords (1992) call for direct and bilateral negotations, but the UN constantly undercuts this principle. the general assembly routinely adopts resolutions that attempt to impose solutions to critical issues. Ironically, security council reolutions 242 and 338 that everyone refers (the ones after 1967) to call for bilateral negotiations as well but are still undermined by UN general assembly resolutions.

* seeing as the UN does not actually do anything to defend israel in the northern border with lebanon what good will it do in the territories? The hizbollah routinely fires rocket rounds into israel proper from within lebanon and the UN does abosolutley nothing about it, not even a single condemnation of violence.

well thats a few of my gripes about the UN with regard to israel, i bet i could think of more if i thought longer (or did more research)


---edit----
i see trancegiant beat me on a couple of my points, good job bro

quote:

Originally posted by ahlamalek where do you want 5-6 millions people to go? why don't israel just gaz every palestinian? it would be easier and faster. I heard that the US had extra reserves of lethal gaz... 1+1=2

It's not my problem or the Israeli's problem where the people go. If someone breaks into your house and starts living in your basement, you don't really care where they go or if they have any place to go, it's only your concern that they leave. That issue isn't relevant to the legitimacy of claims to the land in the area, anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by ahlamalek idiot

Please don't abase yourself. We're trying to have an intelligent conversation here - if you're going to resort to personal attacks, you're not welcome here.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter It's not my problem or the Israeli's problem where the people go. If someone breaks into your house and starts living in your basement, you don't really care where they go or if they have any place to go, it's only your concern that they leave. That issue isn't relevant to the legitimacy of claims to the land in the area, anyway.

dude you took his house first don't forget

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 dude you took his house first don't forget

Not at all - the Israeli's were native to the region, then were enslaved and taken away, THEN the palestinians migrated in from the East, and then the Israeli's were finally returned to the area after World War II.

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