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Quote by comedian Dennis Miller about Palestinians

Comedian Dennis Miller:

"The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word. . . . Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no 'Palestinians' then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no 'Palestinians' then. As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the 'Palestinians,' weeping for their deep bond with their lost 'land' and 'nation.'"

Good food for discussion if I may say so!

Ya I wrote something like this too a while back!;

You will here this a lot that Palestinians are a �People�. That the Jews and Palestinians are two people over one land. And this is where the conflict derives from. This is a very nice argument. But the correct reasoning for it would then have to be One People one Land. Ok so who are a people?

The Israelis are a people. They are Jews. They share an ethnical, religion, and historical background that spans more then 6000 years. They are indeed one of the most united oldest ethnical groups still on earth. Their claim for the territory of Israel are rationalized by their Historical significance to the people (forget about the god given right, you dig 5ft and you find an old Israeli castle/fort) and the fact that the land had belonged to the British before it became in independent nation. Britain got the land from the Ottomans under the Paris Peace Treaty with the responsibility that they get it only if they follow the Balfour declaration, which basically says the only reason Britain gets this land anyway is so it could setup a Jewish homeland on it.

Ok now the Palestinians�. Hmm what are they? A peoples? Why what brings them together. Not all Arabs in Israel are Palestinians... after all you still have over a million content and happy Arab Israelis� which means Israeli citizens (or Arabs living in Israel with full rights) that are Arab. Ok so that rules out ethnicity, how about religion? No they seem to be primarily Christian and Muslims� hmm ok were running out of things, lets see Historical? No, they are just basically Arabs that got to this land during the British mandate from lots of different places with no real same history. And those that were there before have different histories as well. Ok ok.. I know the Palestinians must know what they are.. let me go check what they say about themselves. This is from the Palestinian Liberation Organization (read Arafat�s government) charter (read constitution):

quote:

Article 1: Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.

Right so Palestinians are Arab. We got that one down already.. but not all Arab�s are Palestinians so this doesn�t work.
I love the bit about the Arab nation though. I wish I knew where the Arab nation is... I can�t find it on my map and I've been looking for hours.

Lets read on;

quote:

Article 4: The Palestinian identity is a genuine, essential, and inherent characteristic; it is transmitted from parents to children. The Zionist occupation and the dispersal of the Palestinian Arab people, through the disasters which befell them, do not make them lose their Palestinian identity and their membership in the Palestinian community, nor do they negate them.

Well behind all that Zionist Evil Occupier rhetoric we see some requirements for �membership� in the �Palestinian people� organization, which they assure me is a Genuine, 100% authentic Identity and essential. Ok I can get membership by being transmitted as a child to a parent. Ok good and I see that despite the fact that I fled my home in order to avoid the crossfire between that of the Evil Zionist Occupier and my �Arab Nations� armies when they tried to get all those damn jews to the sea does not disqualify me from joining up. That's great news for me! I thought I almost lost being a 100% genuine member because of that. OK finally we find it though;

quote:

The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or have stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father - whether inside Palestine or outside it - is also a Palestinian.

Ahhhh so that explains it. You have to be or know someone who lived in the Brisith Mandate before 1947!

This is cool, if things work like this I will tell my brother in Rhode Island (its near Jersey) to state that everyone who lived in the mandate of Rhode Island from Jan 1, 1956 to Jul 26, 1956 is part of the NeoRhodian people who have a legitimate right to self determination which is 100% authentic genuine and essential, and therefore can nullify that damn constitution and the evil occupation of those Imperialist Capitalist.. no Socialists.. no wait Colonist!!! I�m not making much sense here am I? Exactly my point.. they don�t seem to be either.

Ok so using that argument we have to say goodbye Palestinians, accept living in the peace loving democracy that Israel aspires to, or move.

i'm gonna make your LONG post shorter by resuming it into this : why don't you just say that israelians are humans and palestinians are animals ?

it's gonna save you all those lines and paragraphs you wrote , sorry but you really really offended me and i don't even wanna bother to quote the specific parts.

even some of the facts you stated are totally FALSE such as arabs living in israel "with full rights" or saying they are living "happily" , are you kidding me ? aren't they treated as second-zone citizens ?

as long as there are extremist people thinking the way you do , i don't think there can be peace.

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 i'm gonna make your LONG post shorter by resuming it into this : why don't you just say that israelians are humans and palestinians are animals ? it's gonna save you all those lines and paragraphs you wrote , sorry but you really really offended me and i don't even wanna bother to quote the specific parts.

no where did he say the palestinians are animals, or even talked down about them. he just justified that the term palestinian is very vague at best and that it is hard to classify exactly who is a palestinian. sorry you got offended but i dont see where it is coming from

quote:

even some of the facts you stated are totally FALSE such as arabs living in israel "with full rights" or saying they are living "happily" , are you kidding me ? aren't they treated as second-zone citizens ? as long as there are extremist people thinking the way you do , i don't think there can be peace.

mind out pointing out exactly what facts are false? surely not that there are arabs living happily in israel, of course not they all despise the government and are dying to move to neighbouring arab countries
he did not say all arabs are living happily, but you cant say that there arent those who are happy. what about my friend who i worked with for egged bus company from dalyat el karmel, an arab, who is proud to be an israeli citizen, what about my middle school field trip where we spent the day with arabs from a nazareth school... those i asked told me they were happy to be in israel.
second class citizens? come on, there are laws agianst discrimination and such, break the law - you go to jail. gimme some proof of that stuff.


also on the same kind of note i was wondering why jerusalem was so holy to muslims. i know what you're going to say: "Farah, the Al Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem represent Islam's third most holy sites."

not true. in fact, the Koran says nothing about jerusalem. It mentions Mecca hundreds of times. It mentions Medina countless times. it never mentions jerusalem. so how did Jerusalem become the third holiest site of Islam? muslims today cite a vague passage in the Koran, the seventeenth Sura, entitled "The Night Journey." It relates that in a dream or a vision mohammed was carried by night "from the sacred temple to the temple that is most remote, whose precinct we have blessed, that we might show him our signs. ..." In the seventh century, some muslims identified the two temples mentioned in this verse as being in Mecca and Jerusalem. And that's as close as Islam's connection with jerusalem gets -- myth, fantasy, wishful thinking. meanwhile, jews can trace their roots in jerusalem back to the days of Abraham.

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 i'm gonna make your LONG post shorter by resuming it into this : why don't you just say that israelians are humans and palestinians are animals ?

You can misquote or misinterpert anyway you like, but I think the conclusion should have been fairly obvious: Israelis are a peoples, Palestinians are not a peoples. Obviously both are humans, and regardless of this status I do believe as a final resolute some form of Palestinian state to be made in negotiations. The arguments made were a humorful attempt to prove the above point.

quote:

it's gonna save you all those lines and paragraphs you wrote , sorry but you really really offended me and i don't even wanna bother to quote the specific parts.

The truth can hurt sometimes. I never said the palestinians were animals, or should be treated as such in the article. I do have sympathy towards them... but regardless they are not a real "peoples" as I believe I have proven.

quote:

even some of the facts you stated are totally FALSE such as arabs living in israel "with full rights" or saying they are living "happily" , are you kidding me ? aren't they treated as second-zone citizens ?

Ok not this I can not tolerate... critisim on interpertation is one thing, but crisitism on facts (unless I do indeed sometimes get them wrong).. well I must counter it to prove to you that these facts are not indeed wrong:

Israel is one of the most open societies in the world, out of a population of about 6.3 million (945,000 Muslims 130,000 Christians and 100,000 Druze).

Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights; in fact it is one of the few places in the Middle East where Arab women may vote (and men for that matter.. after all most the middle east is still dictatorships). Arabs currently hold 10 (or 9 or something like that) seats in the Israeli Knesset (Parliment/Congress). Ariel Sharon's cabinet includes the first Arab minister, Salah Tarif, a druze who serves as a minister without portfolio.

Arabic, like Hebrew is an official language in Israel. More then 300,000 Arab children attend Israeli schools. Contrast this to the time of Israel's founding, there was one Arab high school in the country. Torady there are hundreds of Arab schools.

The sole legal distinction between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel is that the latter are not required to serve in the Israeli army. This is to spare Arab citizens the need to take up arms against their brethern. Neverthless Arabs can volunteer to serve, and some do indeed serve military duty.

So from a legal stand point their is no difference. One can not discriminate against you in Israel because you are an Arab in a job, you have equal protections under the law, you can not be arbitrarely arrested and so forth. This in itself, the fact of due process in Israel and that it extends to Arabs as of all it's citizens should make them 'happier' them those who live in other Arab nations with no such rights.

Of course their is discrimination against them in Israeli society. But please put it in context, remember for instance that the United States has been independent for 226 years and still has not intergrated all its diverse communities. Even today, nearly 40 years after civil rights legislation was adopted, discrimination has not been eradicated. It should not be suprising that Israel has not solved all of its social problems in only 54 years.

Now as for 'happier', I derive this from looking at the average wages of an arab man in Israel, and compare this to an average wage of an arab man in the mid-east and you will see that the Arab man in Israel, should be indeed much happier. They live at much higher standard levels, then their brethren elsewhere in many countries of the Arab world.

I think Yoepus has valid arguements with support as such.

fastmp3 if you're going to just bitch then don't hit the reply button; you waste everyone's time.
Give some support for your arguement or don't waste our time.

Life is full of critics and lacking in producers...

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 as long as there are extremist people thinking the way you do , i don't think there can be peace.

and as long as there are tards who mis-interpret statements like the way you did, i dont think there can be peace either.

quote:

Originally posted by sifntj0r and as long as there are tards who mis-interpret statements like the way you did, i dont think there can be peace either.

mis-interpreting statements is hardly important on the list holding peace back dipshit

The discussion of whether Palestinians are peoples or not is nothing new and nevertheless totally ireelevant. First of all theres no objective criteria to judge whether a group of people forms a peoples or not. Theres probably no general definition other than "a group of people sharing xyz". In the case of the Palestinians neither a unique language nor culture or long history is shared. The only thing that would make them a people is the shared home-lessness. One could say that beginning with 1948 (or 67?) the "Palestinians" defined themselves as such due to their status of People Without Country. Many of those "PWC" live in Jordan(ehr..actually a contradiction) some in refugee camps in Lebynon syria and egypt, some absorbed into Israeli society without the attempt to adjust themselves though.
Ahr..whats my point now
Oh I know! The discussion is interesting in theory but will not contribute at ALL to a solutioin of the conflict. Even right-wing Israeli politicians accept the fact of the "palestinians". it would be stupid not to do so. You cant convince million of people that they're "actually just a bunch of Arabs who adopted a faked identity to get a state". Its not that simple, not at all. Personally I have accepted the Palestinians as a peoples cause it's avtually the most pragmatic way to solve the conflict. Provided that the Palestinian Leadership really claims the territories occupied in 1967, only, the "two staes for two peoples" would be an excellent way out of the hundred year long war. Today's leadership however wants more, though. Thereby actually contradicting the "Plaestinian" identity they adapted. So basically the "palestinian" peoples-"trick" or fact can be very useful but on the other hand also misused as a step (set by the other Arab nations who wanna get rid of the refugees?!)toward's Israel's destruction.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant The discussion of whether Palestinians are peoples or not is nothing new and nevertheless totally ireelevant. .....

Altought your definition of who a Palestinian is, is not that of the offical PLO, and perhaps contradictory in many senses. I do agree with the above statement though.

It is sort of irrelevant, since it does not change the facts of the ground. But it does help, if say many people across the world were to hold the belief the palestinians were not a people, you could come across more unique and perhaps permant solutions.

Such as Jordan taking soverighnty over the west bank, and Egypt over Gaza. These countries both have the infastructure and utility to fight terrorism, if they so chose in these areas as well, and are commited (and honor) peace with Israel by treaty.

Discussion at it's best!

i gotta say i'm very deceived by the reaction of some of you , all i did was expressing the feeling i had (without any bad intention) after reading the first posts and now i am accused of "just bitching"

and i still believe that saying palestinians are not a people is just irrevelant , because they do share cultural , ethnical , religious , and historical background more than jews . back in the '50s the only thing a spharadi and an askhenazi have in common is the religion , and nothing else since each community has been living in a different part of the world for thousands of year , which means each one created it's own culture.

and finally if you don't want me to participate in a debate anymore just tell it to me , but as long as i feel there is an injustice or a false fact i won't stop myself to denonciate it.

just my 2cents

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 i gotta say i'm very deceived by the reaction of some of you , all i did was expressing the feeling i had (without any bad intention) after reading the first posts and now i am accused of "just bitching" and i still believe that saying palestinians are not a people is just irrevelant , because they do share cultural , ethnical , religious , and historical background more than jews . back in the '50s the only thing a spharadi and an askhenazi have in common is the religion , and nothing else since each community has been living in a different part of the world for thousands of year , which means each one created it's own culture. and finally if you don't want me to participate in a debate anymore just tell it to me , but as long as i feel there is an injustice or a false fact i won't stop myself to denonciate it. just my 2cents

Denonciating and expressing; sure, everyone is allowed their opinions, but without some support behind it, that's all it is; an opinion.
I wasn't really slamming your opinion, just the way it was expressed; empty.
It was devoid of any persuasion that a discussion should have that's all...

Maybe if you would have told us why you feel that way, I might have agreed...
At least your second post says something...lol

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 i gotta say i'm very deceived by the reaction of some of you , all i did was expressing the feeling i had (without any bad intention) after reading the first posts and now i am accused of "just bitching" and i still believe that saying palestinians are not a people is just irrevelant , because they do share cultural , ethnical , religious , and historical background more than jews . back in the '50s the only thing a spharadi and an askhenazi have in common is the religion , and nothing else since each community has been living in a different part of the world for thousands of year , which means each one created it's own culture. and finally if you don't want me to participate in a debate anymore just tell it to me , but as long as i feel there is an injustice or a false fact i won't stop myself to denonciate it. just my 2cents

Tststs. Thats just historically WRONG. I wont sit down and type for hours just to explain you why Jews are peoples and I find this "we are more like peoples than you" attitude childish. As I already said, Palestinians share just one thing: their exodus after 1948, thats it. The ottoman province "palestine" was almost unpopulated 200 years ago. at the turn of the century BOTH Arabs who worked for wealthy landowners from Egypt or other provinces and Jews emigrated to Palestine. Both saw themselves as "Palestinians" back then. Arabs came for economic reasons while Jews came in order to fulfill their Zionist dream. Of course due to the centuries-long Diaspora Jews throughout the world assimilated and adopted aspects of the culture they lived in, but the essence, such as Jewish traditions, beliefs, language (in some cases) was never abandoned.

P.s.: No1 said u should particitpate int eh debate, Taha! Who else should I argue with? Seriously the discussion would be futile if there was no "counterpart", would be like playing tennis with the wall. "Dualistic" are mutually enriching.

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 even some of the facts you stated are totally FALSE such as arabs living in israel "with full rights" or saying they are living "happily" , are you kidding me ? aren't they treated as second-zone citizens ?

If I was a jew in Israel and had my family blown up by Palastinian terror networks, I'd treat them like second class citizens too. Put yourself in different shoes from time to time and you'll know why things are the way they are.

You can also put yourself in the Palastinian shoes, oppressed by a government, forced out of your home, etc... what are you going to do, go blow yourself up in front of people who did that to you.

The situation is too difficult to take sides, but I think the parties that dont want peace at all ought to be dealt with. The Hamas wants the destruction of Israel, they could care less about a Palastinian state. This group is the one that needs to be destroyed.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Israel is one of the most open societies in the world, out of a population of about 6.3 million (945,000 Muslims 130,000 Christians and 100,000 Druze). Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights; in fact it is one of the few places in the Middle East where Arab women may vote (and men for that matter.. after all most the middle east is still dictatorships). Arabs currently hold 10 (or 9 or something like that) seats in the Israeli Knesset (Parliment/Congress). Ariel Sharon's cabinet includes the first Arab minister, Salah Tarif, a druze who serves as a minister without portfolio. Arabic, like Hebrew is an official language in Israel. More then 300,000 Arab children attend Israeli schools. Contrast this to the time of Israel's founding, there was one Arab high school in the country. Torady there are hundreds of Arab schools. The sole legal distinction between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel is that the latter are not required to serve in the Israeli army. This is to spare Arab citizens the need to take up arms against their brethern. Neverthless Arabs can volunteer to serve, and some do indeed serve military duty. So from a legal stand point their is no difference. One can not discriminate against you in Israel because you are an Arab in a job, you have equal protections under the law, you can not be arbitrarely arrested and so forth. This in itself, the fact of due process in Israel and that it extends to Arabs as of all it's citizens should make them 'happier' them those who live in other Arab nations with no such rights. Of course their is discrimination against them in Israeli society. But please put it in context, remember for instance that the United States has been independent for 226 years and still has not intergrated all its diverse communities. Even today, nearly 40 years after civil rights legislation was adopted, discrimination has not been eradicated. It should not be suprising that Israel has not solved all of its social problems in only 54 years. Now as for 'happier', I derive this from looking at the average wages of an arab man in Israel, and compare this to an average wage of an arab man in the mid-east and you will see that the Arab man in Israel, should be indeed much happier. They live at much higher standard levels, then their brethren elsewhere in many countries of the Arab world.

that's a little hard for me to believe after hearing about all the suicide bombings and west bank incursions this year... something is going on there underneath the surface, and the above series of paragraphs is a little to rosy for me to accept in it's entirety, although some of it is true.

quote:

Originally posted by Verona^My If I was a jew in Israel and had my family blown up by Palastinian terror networks, I'd treat them like second class citizens too. Put yourself in different shoes from time to time and you'll know why things are the way they are.

Ya but Palestinians are not citizens of Israel, and therefore can't be second class citizens there of.

Arab are citizens of Israel, and are legally by any means not treated as second class. The only discrimination they face is from narrow-minded people that seem them as a link with the Palestian. They rationalize this fear as some Arab Israelis have co-operated and launched terror attacks against other Israelis.

The irony to reading these posts is so obvious. Not one person is a Palestinian. Surely the best person to say what it is to be a palestinian is a palestinian.

Only a palestinian could say what it is like to be dispossessed

Only a palestinian could say what it is like to be abandoned by other Arab states for the sake of political expediency

Only a palestinian could say what it is like to live under a brutal foreign occupation. Living under a regime that is every bit as racist as South Africa.

Only a palestinian could say what it is like to be abadoned by the international community who know that crimes are being committed in clear violation of international law but turn backs or in the case of the USA are willing collaborators.

There may not have been a unique palestinian identity in 1948, which is one of the reasons they were beaten then. But, years of persecution, murder, oppression has most definitely created one.

There will be an independant Palestine, not on Israels terms, not on americas terms, but on the palestinians terms.

Unless a fair settlement is reached with compensation and better yet an apology there is going to be a major shakeup in the middle-east.

Nothing is being done to stop the rising tide of islamic fundamentalism in the region. The brutal arab regimes that the west and israel could do business with are going to inevitably be replaced by brutal islamic regimes that you cant.

Lets all start our own ethnic groups! It'll be fun!

quote:

Originally posted by rupert There will be an independant Palestine, not on Israels terms, not on americas terms, but on the palestinians terms. Unless a fair settlement is reached with compensation and better yet an apology there is going to be a major shakeup in the middle-east.

It cant be on the palestianians terms, it has to be mutual. Efforts towards peace must be made from both sides, right now the Palastinians are the instigators, the Israelis are mainly just responding to attacks with attacks. The Hamas is a major problem, as they will do their best effort to derail any attempts towards peace in the region.

--- Some notes

Palastine was conquered in the 1969 war, if I'm not mistaken, a war in which arab countries invaded Israel. Since Israel was invaded, and defeated the invaders, I dont hold as much sympathy for those who had their country taken from them, for they were foolish to invade them. On the other hand I would have sympathy in the case of when Iraq invaded the sovereign nation of Kuwait.

Some of the land was given back, but I assume the rest was kept for security reasons.

Nah, dont even attempt to tell rupert the history of the conflict. Me, Yoepus and various other members have already done so extensively many many times. You see the results...

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus The Israelis are a people. They are Jews. They share an ethnical, religion, and historical background that spans more then 6000 years. They are indeed one of the most united oldest ethnical groups still on earth.

the whole premice of your logical reasoning is wrong.

you state that israeli are jews, you said later, there's arab israelis, druze israelis, etc.

israelis share one ethnical background... again wrong. well lets just say that jews share an ethnical background and then again that is wrong. You have long blond jews, you have ones looking exactly like arabs, others who came from africa and are jews, heck there's even some chinese jews!

the real term you're looking for is semite... that is an ethnical group which comprise arabs, armenians, jews, arameens, etc.

world jewery is mostly composed of an european decent (khazarians).

so... telling that israelis are the most united people etc etc because of their ethnical background is totaly false.

Israeli is a person from Israel. Jewish is a person that follows the Jewish religion. not all jews are israelis, and not all israelis are jews.

now the palestinian part... palestinians are the people who live in Palestine. thats it. they can be jews, muslim arabs, christians, armenians, etc etc.

in other words, being palestinian and israeli could be compared to being american. there's no such thing as an american ethnical group... its a misxture of irish, english, german, french, italian, african, etc etc etc...

And you state that Palestine was owned by the British empire... you state it as if they were always owned by them. let me remind you that Palestine was a province in the Ottoman empire, and then again they're only one of the empire that passed thru, just like the British empire.

and one last thing... the thing about the arabic nation. don't be naive. this is not about a nation with a border (called a state), a flag, currency etc. Its like the jewish nation, which if I'm not wrong is somewhere in your laws and state that it is composed of every jewish person anywhere in the world. the arabic nation is composed of the people that share the arabic language and are in their arabic homeland (arabic territories...)

holy shit what arguments i was not aware there are Arabs living in Israel, well except the obvious parts. but hmm....that whole situation is screwed up and i dont think it will stop for a looong time, certainly not in my lifetime. i hope for the best just cant see it happening, just look at the reply's here from Israeli's and Arabs how they disagree on many things. each holds his own the right. i have my own opinion, but ill keep it to myself for the sake of not getting called an opinionated arse.

>JM<

quote:

Originally posted by ahlamalek the thing about the arabic nation. don't be naive. this is not about a nation with a border (called a state), a flag, currency etc. Its like the jewish nation, which if I'm not wrong is somewhere in your laws and state that it is composed of every jewish person anywhere in the world. the arabic nation is composed of the people that share the arabic language and are in their arabic homeland (arabic territories...)

and the "Croatian Nation" is comprised of all Roman Catholic Croatians living in Croatian land, whether that be in Croatia or Bosnia. oh wait! while MOST Croatians ARE Roman Catholic, SOME are NOT! ||||||CONFLICT|||||WARNING||||||

what the hell now? why CAN Muslim Bosnians get along with Croatian Bosnians and the Arab Muslims CAN'T get along with the Israely Jews?

and vice versa......hmmm....crap this reply isnt going anywhere for me

>JM<

quote:

Originally posted by Juricimo and the "Croatian Nation" is comprised of all Roman Catholic Croatians living in Croatian land, whether that be in Croatia or Bosnia. oh wait! while MOST Croatians ARE Roman Catholic, SOME are NOT! ||||||CONFLICT|||||WARNING|||||| what the hell now? why CAN Muslim Bosnians get along with Croatian Bosnians and the Arab Muslims CAN'T get along with the Israely Jews? and vice versa......hmmm....crap this reply isnt going anywhere for me >JM<

hehe lemme answer

1st question : 'cause they both been living there for centuries and they share the same "ethnicity"

2nd question : 'cause the jewish immigrants from europe and the rest of the world came 50 years ago and took arab people's land

voila as simple as it is

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