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Taxes

What do you people think about taxes?

They are necessary to sustain infrastructure and provide social services etc....but do you you think you are over taxed? I get annoyed with the high taxes we pay in Canada. I believe taxes are quite high in many European countries too, especially Scandanavia.

I tend to support lower taxes and fiscal responsibilty. Also, nations who have lowered corporate taxes tend to improve their economy (ie Ireland).

What do you think?

The more money you give the government, the more money it will waste. Taxes should be as low as possible. They ought not to be a vehicle for the redistribution of wealth. The following types of taxes are especially offensive (in my opinion):

Progressive Income Tax

Successful, productive people shouldn't be punished for earning more money that unsuccessful, unproductive people.


Taxes on Capital Gains

It's double taxation, and it discourages investment, which is detrimental to the economy.


Excise Tax

Moral authoritarianism - nothing more


Estate Tax

It's double taxation, and furthermore, the last people who you should be stealing money from are people who just lost a loved one.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter The more money you give the government, the more money it will waste. Taxes should be as low as possible. They ought not to be a vehicle for the redistribution of wealth. The following types of taxes are especially offensive (in my opinion): Progressive Income Tax Successful, productive people shouldn't be punished for earning more money that unsuccessful, unproductive people. Taxes on Capital Gains It's double taxation, and it discourages investment, which is detrimental to the economy.

Capital gains taxes didn't stop the Dow Jones avg going up from 3,000 to 10,000 during the Clinton years. Now under Bush it's having a little trouble getting back up to 10,000... I wonder why? And I seem to recall that during the 2000 election, half of CEO's endorsed Gore, because the democrats have a better economic policy than those trickle down Republicans, esp considering trickle down economics has long been proven to be an abysmal failure. People need money to spend for the economy to grow, that's why middle class tax cuts are more effective for economic growth, because the middle class is the spending class. Clinton understood that, and despite all the conspiracies drawn up by Republicans about him & Monica, Clinton heralded in the greatest period of economic growth this nation has ever seen.

Progressive income taxes are acceptable. And unsuccessful people are not necessarily unproductive, you can have hard workers earn $15,000/year... Doesn't mean they are unproductive. Lots of the goods we buy in America for ex. were made by foriegners in sweat shops making under $10 a day... Think about that the next time you buy a VCR or DVD player that says made in Taiwan...

I changed my stance on wealth redistribution over the past year, largely due to what economists have been saying lately. I believe it helps the monetary flow in the economy, keeps to much blood from reaching the head so to speak... In other words the rich are getting richer. Economists have stated that middle class tax cuts like under the near perfect Clintonian economy of the 90's, are better suited to economic growth than tax cuts on the rich, which are horrible for the economy.

Further more, people who are rich already have advantages that the other classes do not have. Why shouldn't they pay a higher % of their income to help fund necessary govt activities.

Besides class inequity in America has been well documented... the rich are getting richer at a staggering rate, while the poor get poorer. I dont see any reason why we should encourage this trend.

You watch George Bush sink the great economy we had in the Clinton years. 4% unemployment, WOW! That's what we had under Clinton. Economists thought it was totally impossible, but Clinton gone and created the godlike economy. Well not totally godlike, but it was a great economy.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Progressive Income Tax Successful, productive people shouldn't be punished for earning more money that unsuccessful, unproductive people.

the ones who earn the most aren't necessarily the most productive...

quote:

Originally posted by Philby the ones who earn the most aren't necessarily the most productive...

exactly, see my point about the VCRs/DVD players made by people making $10 a day. Often rich people are some of the least productive in the country. The Svenson & Gielen video for twisted does display some examples of the excessive indulgence of the rich. Big fat ladies with grapes in their hair eating till they puke is not my idea of productive.

I think the whole idea of the feudal system is that the rich do none of the work & get all of the stuff, while the poor do all of the work & get nothing. If you were lucky, you were strong and could be a knight paid to defend the kingdom, or the suppress the occassional peasant revolt caused by such an oppressive kingdom.

Republicans I fear lean a little too much towards feudalism for my liking.

lol
'help! help! im being opressed! see the voilence inherint in the system!!! you saw that didnt you??'

'i am arthur, king of the britons!'
'king? i didnt vote for you!'

hahaha
i cant be fucked typing out the whole scene, but you should know what im talking about


hehe
'the only certanties in life are death and taxes'
cant remember who said it though!

Two taxes I would like to see abolished are

a) The Property Tax

b) Scholarship Tax

a is because I dont believe in taxes on assets while your alive... having your house repossesed because you didn't make enough to pay the property tax brings up Sheriff of Nottingham issues. You pay the rent, you have your house, like everything else you own.

b is because I dont believe in taxes on college scholarships, period. Scholarships are a special acclaim for doing exceptionally well in school and for that reason they should not be taxed.

I dont oppose most forms of taxation, but ones that I believe detrimental to the health of a nation, I oppose.

quote:

Originally posted by Philby lol 'help! help! im being opressed! see the voilence inherint in the system!!! you saw that didnt you??' 'i am arthur, king of the britons!' 'king? i didnt vote for you!' hahaha i cant be fucked typing out the whole scene, but you should know what im talking about hehe 'the only certanties in life are death and taxes' cant remember who said it though!

Monty Python & the Holy Grail, I love that movie. I mean to think of how stupid we actually were during the days of the pilgrims for example. We actually killed people because we thought they were witches.

They did everything wrong in the old days, that's why they consistantly had such terrible results.

taxes are important. the only problem is that tax revenue is being used to fund social morals. why do i have to pay for some poor person, or a large family? if taxes were just used to ensure good infrastructure then i bet many more ppl wouldn't mind such a rort.

and it should just be consumer tax not earnings and investment taxes. ie you use it you pay for it, easy isn't it.
[i'm sure all you finance ppl out there will find heaps of things wrong with this arguement]

quote:

Originally posted by Verona^My Capital gains taxes didn't stop the Dow Jones avg going up from 3,000 to 10,000 during the Clinton years. Now under Bush it's having a little trouble getting back up to 10,000... I wonder why? And I seem to recall that during the 2000 election, half of CEO's endorsed Gore, because the democrats have a better economic policy than those trickle down Republicans, esp considering trickle down economics has long been proven to be an abysmal failure. People need money to spend for the economy to grow, that's why middle class tax cuts are more effective for economic growth, because the middle class is the spending class. Clinton understood that, and despite all the conspiracies drawn up by Republicans about him & Monica, Clinton heralded in the greatest period of economic growth this nation has ever seen.

As much as I didn't support Reagan, his trickle down economic policy worked. It just didn't took ten years to truly come to fruition, when guess who, Clinton, benefited from it without having to make any sacrifice himself.

quote:

Progressive income taxes are acceptable. And unsuccessful people are not necessarily unproductive, you can have hard workers earn $15,000/year... Doesn't mean they are unproductive. Lots of the goods we buy in America for ex. were made by foriegners in sweat shops making under $10 a day... Think about that the next time you buy a VCR or DVD player that says made in Taiwan...

Fair enough that they're not unproductive, but they're being paid exactly what they should - the fair value of labor in the region as dictated by supply and demand. You don't pay workers a lot of money to be nice, you do it because if you didn't, no one would work for you. When that isn't the case, you simply don't pay them a lot. It would be idiotic to take any other course of action, and would put you at a competitive disadvantage against companies that did so.

quote:

I changed my stance on wealth redistribution over the past year, largely due to what economists have been saying lately. I believe it helps the monetary flow in the economy, keeps to much blood from reaching the head so to speak... In other words the rich are getting richer. Economists have stated that middle class tax cuts like under the near perfect Clintonian economy of the 90's, are better suited to economic growth than tax cuts on the rich, which are horrible for the economy.

The tallest tree in the forest recevies the most sunlight, yet the forest prospers for millennia. It is the natural way. Economists, especially in the government, like to attempt to subvert the natural equilibrium of our economy, but it would be a healthier and more stable economy if they would stop trying to make it always go up, because as we've seen in the past few years, all that does is build up a bubble of overvalued stocks which will inevitably burst.

quote:

Further more, people who are rich already have advantages that the other classes do not have. Why shouldn't they pay a higher % of their income to help fund necessary govt activities. Besides class inequity in America has been well documented... the rich are getting richer at a staggering rate, while the poor get poorer. I dont see any reason why we should encourage this trend.

The rich get richer because they keep doing the things that made them rich, and the poor get poorer because they keep doing the things that made them poor. And the poor get so many more benefits from "necessary" government activities than the rich, so they should be the ones footing the bill, not the rich people who laugh at the notion that such policies even ought to be implemented.

[QUOTE]
You watch George Bush sink the great economy we had in the Clinton years. 4% unemployment, WOW! That's what we had under Clinton. Economists thought it was totally impossible, but Clinton gone and created the godlike economy. Well not totally godlike, but it was a great economy. [QUOTE]

It's always fun to judge a president's ability to manage the economy by what transpires during his term, but that's not the way the economy works as any serious economist would tell you. Today's policies will not manifest themselves for years to come - save for a few superficial changes.

i support taxes to a certain extent..what bothers me the most is the fact that everyone has to pay a certain amount of their income to taxes and then the net that is left is taxed again the second you purchase something..i feel that it shouldnt be the responsibilty of the consumer to have to pay taxes after purchasing a product..im taxed almost 1/3 of my gross pay to my government and then any purchase is taxed again leaving the average person 1/2 of their gross income..then when you done paying all your bills which are taxed also your left with nothing..sad..just sad..

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter The rich get richer because they keep doing the things that made them rich, and the poor get poorer because they keep doing the things that made them poor. And the poor get so many more benefits from "necessary" government activities than the rich, so they should be the ones footing the bill, not the rich people who laugh at the notion that such policies even ought to be implemented.

The poor can not be made to foot any bill, they dont have the money... ok maybe the sherriff of Nottingham tried to do this, but those times are over. It's the 21st century now, and tax policy has evolved with the times.

Of course the poor get benifits, but rich corporations get far more. The reason money is given to poor people is twofold, to redivert money to the spending class & to keep the peasants from revolting. The rich dont want people buring down their homes, and I'd saying welfare & other social service programs is a small price to pay for that. Corporate welfare on the other hand is much more costly.

As for the economy & presidents... The budget is decided every year & each years budget effects the next strongly. The problem is economically speaking is a lot of Bush's tax cuts however occur over an 8 year period, so it'll create a lingering effect.

Dunno about Reagan, left office 4 years before Clinton took office, and Bush sr. in 1990 signed then, the largest tax increase of his time. A small recession occurred a couple years later. Clinton was elected, then a few years lated enacted some of his middle class tax cuts, a boom ensued. Maybe there were some lingering tax cuts of Reagan still going through the woodwork, kinda like how Bush jr set up his tax cuts over 8 years.

As far as I'm concerned, whatever tax policy that will strengthen the nation's economy is what matters most.

quote:

Originally posted by dr me taxes are important. the only problem is that tax revenue is being used to fund social morals. why do i have to pay for some poor person, or a large family? if taxes were just used to ensure good infrastructure then i bet many more ppl wouldn't mind such a rort.

Other countries have maritial law and rigid social structures so they dont have to pay anything to help the poor. Developed nations on the other hand, have to, because there would be massive social problems caused by that line of thinking. I used to think that way myself, but then I realized the faults of my logic. I used to believe that each mans money is his own and shouldn't be given to anyone else by a government agency, but then I realize it's a necessity to keep order in such a society.

If we were a dictatorship this wouldn't keep the case, troops would force everyone to submit to the will of the emperor, no matter how bad his policies, so such societies wouldn't need welfare or social programs. But, I bet a lot of dictatorships have some form of social programs anyway. Why? Cause it keeps people happy and helps national morale.

I really should read Machiavelli sometime...

great article:
http://slate.msn.com/?id=2074589

quote:

Originally posted by Verona^My Other countries have maritial law and rigid social structures so they dont have to pay anything to help the poor. Developed nations on the other hand, have to, because there would be massive social problems caused by that line of thinking. I used to think that way myself, but then I realized the faults of my logic. I used to believe that each mans money is his own and shouldn't be given to anyone else by a government agency, but then I realize it's a necessity to keep order in such a society. If we were a dictatorship this wouldn't keep the case, troops would force everyone to submit to the will of the emperor, no matter how bad his policies, so such societies wouldn't need welfare or social programs. But, I bet a lot of dictatorships have some form of social programs anyway. Why? Cause it keeps people happy and helps national morale.

what you are basically saying is that ppl are naturally morally corrupt and that they only want to further their own desires.
humans are pathetic.

dr me .. how come u never post in the AU forum anymore?

quote:

Originally posted by webmeister dr me .. how come u never post in the AU forum anymore?

i would but the topics are crap, no offense

I dont pay taxes. Lucky me and my Native Status. :PPPPP

quote:

I dont pay taxes. Lucky me and my Native Status. :PPPPP

Lucky you!

i guess taxes are there..i cant do anything about them, ( i cant vote in the US ) sooo....i guess i would like for lower taxes, and lower all the dumbass taxes they slap onto every bill i receive in the mail GO GO GO Pres. BUsh lower those taXEs!!!!

>JM<

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