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-- When language becomes a prison

When language becomes a prison

Im pretty devestated right now..and..its a long story..but it also has to do with the fact of limited expression. I know this girl for 3 years now, from Israel, via Internet..and we wrote each other, and talked on the phone and what not..and I find myself imprisoned when having to TALK about the things I use to write. Or when I have to switch from English to Hebrew. And this leads me to the question of how much is actually taken away from us when using, even our native, language. I think Wittgenstein was the dude philosophying about this problem but what do u personally think? Do you sometimes feel limited? Can u express yourself in one way better than in the other? How do u think can the optimal/ideal way of expressing one's thoughts and ideas be achieved? Or should I cut that bullshit and deal with my problems in form of diary writing?
maybe yes

hell yeah i feel a lot limited when i have to express myself in english , as you all know it's not my native language nor my second one and i do my best to express my ideas and stuff , but i still find it difficult to debate or to clearly express my ideas specially here

i have a weird problem also , when i talk to someone who speaks arabic only i have the bad habit of thinking in french then expressing my ideas in arabic , sometimes i can't even find the words

btw TranceGiant your english is perfect as fuck waaaay better than a lot of non-anglo TAs

i know what you mean! sometimes its as if they didnt invent enough words. example:
I love my girlfried
I love my mom
I love ice cream
in my view those are all different meanings of the word love but we still have only one word to use

French is my mother tongue. I have been losing my French steadily because I live in a (mostly) English culture. Before my French was just as good as my English, now my English is far superior. I even think in English now which can make a French conversation difficult. I must make the effort.

Just by reading some of you guys's posts, its hard to tell english isn't your native language. On an off topic, in other countries what language do people start learning there secondary language? It seems like everyone from outside the U.S, esspecially Europe speaks at least 2 languages fluently, while here most people here speak one fluently, and have a really really broken second language.

ehh..I was actually talking more generally. It's obvious that one won't express himself in any given language in such a clear form as in his native language. But in my opinion even your own language, mother tounge, the one you speak fluently and perfectly limits you. The prison is bigger, you got a lot more space to run around but ultimately you'll face a wall. Izzy gave a good example. Love....there's no common definition hence no language will give u a proper word. Basically all emotional things running through your mind..feelings..sentiments..sometimes memories are very hard to express verbally. That's where art comes into play.
Another thing that affects communication is the ambiguous nature of many many words. Again "love" is a perfect example.

Words cannot describe how much I disagree with your sentiments.

Im still curious as fuck so please give it a try at least

Words and language do limit our sense of expression. When asked "how was your day?" I am unable to provide an enitrely accurate description. The description given is usually very general and doesn't include the extent of everything that happened. The description is filled with inaccuracies and unintended omissions. This suggests that words are a bad substitute for actual experience, just as you cannot get wet in the word "water," or fed with the word "food."

I don't think anyone ever suggested words could be a substitute for actual experience, their purpose is to convey thoughts and ideas.

At the risk of sounding like a pedant, I think when people ask "how was your day?" they don't want a full and detailed summary of your day, but rather a brief overview. If you really wished, you could guide them through the experiences of your day - indeed it would take some considerable time, but then a day lasts 24 hours.

Nadi, what exactly do you mean when you say that most Americans can speak a "really really broken second language". When it comes to languages and education, I was of the understanding that your nation ranked similarly to mine - ie rubbish. The average person in England cannot speak anything other than English. Not even a second language badly. All most people know is a few token words like "bonjour" and "hola" and whatever else they've heard on the TV or read on a menu, and I would not describe that as really broken, but as nothing at all. It is mandatory for everyone in the country to learn a language (usually French or German) for 5 years at least while at secondary school. In my case I learnt French, and after five years I couldn't hold even the most basic conversations with a Frenchman because the teaching was rubbish and the classes were a raucous affair. I'd be hopeless at understanding them if they spoke at normal speed - everyone in my class was the same. I find it hard to believe the situation is any better in the states. In total I probably know the best part of 100 German words (from studying history etc), but I wouldn't tell anyone I speak "really really broken German", I cannot speak it at all. Is this what you were saying, or are you saying that the situation isn't so bad over there?

Language is merely a compression mechanism for ideas. It's normal, though unforunate, to lose some quality.

speaking of languages, I grew up in France and french being possibly considered talking it at the age of five, english around the age of 8.

We spoke english at home, and I was comfortable with it and still am now that I am at home.

I occasionaly forget words in one or the other language, but from an emotional point of view, this is odd, english is more free flowing so to speak , and french is more to express my deepest emotions!? get it ?


I think the way I become affected and start to think in one language is totally in relation with my location ..... right now I never think in French , or occasionaly like if I'm really tired or having some odd dreams but yeah after living here one year I'm already stumbling on certain words in french


like I used to be super good at expressing myself in french, but no worries I'm coming back

English in general is a very simple language. More closer to machine language than anything. Compared to other languages it can be very cold!

quote:

Originally posted by Illusion English in general is a very simple language. More closer to machine language than anything. Compared to other languages it can be very cold!

You're kidding??? I've heard people say this about Spanish, but never English, which is generally regarded to be the richest language in the world with over 500,000 words (the average person is believed to know under 15,000 and even Shakespeare was estimated to know only 50,000 - a mere tenth of the language!). And when you look at all the complicated spelling rules - or lack thereof - in English, which do not make any logical sense, it is a truly massive and complex language where rules are more often than not thrown into the wind. Part of the reason it is so big is because it is the most mongrellised. English has borrowed from almost every language under the sun and has accumulated a massive wordbase and become all the more complicated for it. Even us native English speakers have barely even scratched the surface of our own language - you could study for your whole life and you wouldn't get very far. It is not a science it is an art form.

Doesn't matter how many words a language has.

It's the architechture of it I'm talking about.

Ok I'll give you an example.

The word "You"

Most languages have different versions if it.


German for example. Has a polite "you" and a friendly "you"

Or say Russian for instance is a far faaar richer language than English.

quote:

Language is merely a compression mechanism for ideas. It's normal, though unforunate, to lose some quality.

Good point that.

If we were to properly (i.e. absolutely and exactly) convey any given idea we had of our own to others, it would take up a metaphorical eternity (with all the definitions and re-definitions it would require - which are each conveyed via the imperfect medium of words as well): therefore, the idea we convey is only as good as the way in which we convey it, and the way in which it is heard.

Nonetheless, it must be remembered that words are not our only means of communication. We can communicate via our actions (body language is one of the best indicators of the meaning of the words uttered), our tonality (i.e. how the words are said - think about how many different ways the phrase "hey you" can be conveyed?) and through other means, such as pictures and graphs. Conveying an idea through words alone is undeniably difficult, but an idea can be understood better - at times - by examining these other factors rather than by scrutininsing every word in its exacting etymological detail.

As for Wittgenstein, his fallacy was to presume that we all thought in "words" so to speak. That is, we may see a pretty sunset, and our response would be "That is a pretty sunset", but I don't think that this approach is quite valid. One may see a sunset, and while one may think to oneself "what a pretty sunset" there is still a deeper cognitive process occurring at the same time that is entirely distinct from the knowledge contained in one's vocabulary. While it is true that the nature of our native tongue may skew our perception of the world in some way, it must still be remembered that our knowledge of words does not constitute the be-all and end-all of one's ability to think, nor of one's ability to effectively (as opposed to absolutely and exactingly) convey ideas.

In other words, Trancegiant, the communication you have with the Isreali girl can't be entirely measured in your ability to convey your ideas with each other with semantic precision, but rather with the understanding that the "vocal" medium is imperfect, and the realisation that there are some feelings and ideas that cannot be conveyed this way. If you were to meet her - and were able to put her body language to her words - the problem wouldn't be as severe.

So, to convey my idea subjectively and unexactingly, words are a prison, but they ain't Alcatraz.

quote:

Originally posted by Illusion Doesn't matter how many words a language has. It's the architechture of it I'm talking about. Ok I'll give you an example. The word "You" Most languages have different versions if it. German for example. Has a polite "you" and a friendly "you" Or say Russian for instance is a far faaar richer language than English.

When talking about how rich a language is, the number of words does matter for argument's sake, for it shows just how widely used as well as widely influenced a language has been. A language with far fewer words is unlikely to be as widely used, or widely influenced.

English is without doubt the most mongrellised language in the world today. It is impure, and these impurities explain why it is so complex, as well as so rich.

To take your own examples, let's have a look at Russian:

Firstly, it has no word for the or a!

The verb to be is not used in the present tense. For example, if I wanted to say I am a student I would say (cyrillic doesn't work on these boards so I'll do it phonetically in English): "Ya stoodyent". This translates as "I student". Whether or not I am saying I will be a student, or was a student, depends entirely upon context! The person listening would have to work that out from the context.

Thirdly, many Russian words are similar to ours anyway, except their spellings are far more logical and uniform. Here, I'll give you a few Russian words, tell me if you can guess what they are in English (say them phonetically): stadeeon, kreeket, deeplomat, kozmonavt, tooreest, leetr, traktor, preenter etc etc. (Note - I tried my best to put them phonetically in English, before any Russians begin flaming me! )
It has other odd links too. The Russian word for "Ski Jump" is "trampleen" which sounds exactly like the English trampline, if you use your imagination you can see the connection. The French word for beach is "plage", in Russian it is "plyash". It has borrowed from other languages just as we have.

Lastly, Russian, like many languages, is a what-you-see-is-what-you-get language. By that I mean that all but a few of the letters of the cyrillic alphabet will almost always sound the same. A few letters don't, like the Russian "o", which sometimes sounds like the O in "broke", sometimes like the U in "nut" and sometimes like the O in "dog". Other than a couple of other letters, the rest will almost always sound the same. Letters will never be silent in Russian, well there may be rare exceptions. Russian has two letters which have no sound, they signify a silent letter, so you get none of this nonsense like you do in English where about half of our letters are silent on occasion.

Try comparing this to English, where most the letters in our alphabet can have many different sounds. There are many occasions when letters with their own sounds become silent, such as the word "bought". And there are many like the word "psychology", the P is not it's usual sound, and the two Y's sound different (they sound like I and E). Could you find a law to explain all this? Some logical explanation for all this mayhem in our language? The answer is no, you couldn't. It is incredibly complicated. Few rules exist in English and even they have exceptions somewhere along the line. Hardly sounds like a set in stone mechanical language!

"I have one oxe but my friend has two oxen, I have one cat he has two cats." "They've just built another stadium, now they have 3 stadia". Bizarre eh?. But because English is our native language we take all of this for granted - it is extremely illogical.

Your example of the word "you" is correct but it is just one example. If you get into longer more complex sentences there are an insane number of ways to say something in English. Above I have given you many examples of English getting confusing, and even I as a native English speaker who is studying English Language I could not offer you an infallible rule for our language. I don't deny that what you say about other languages is true, Russian is a rich language, but to suggest that English is even remotely mechanical is ludicrous. If English was any kind of machine it would be a bloody bizarre one with upside down handles and dials that don't work

Before anyone gets hot-headed, I am not trying to say English is 'better' than any other language. You could describe the English language as something of a whore, it has certainly 'been around'.

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