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Racial Profiling

i got inspired by Cyprus King's earlier thread about airport sercuirity and wanted to ask more specifically whether or not you agree with racial profiling, or profiling on any factor be it national, religious, ethinical or phsycological...

and while we're on that race issue, what do you think of affirmative action in US educational institutions?

being a white male between the age of 18-55 i'm very opposed to the idea of educational benefits to minorities simply because of race...i know the arguments for and against and i know i'm biased, but i still think it should be given to the best student, which in most cases would be someone like me...i've always been at the top and although i've recieved scholarships for school, i've seen a lot of people not as qualified as me recieving similar compensation.


i'll also just add something about affirmative action in general...i remember last year, bush (florida bush) tried to pass some kind of end of affirmative action policy in florida and there was a huge outrage and protests etc saying that its not fair to take it away. i've always viewed minorities as wanting to be equal so how would you guys respond to that as they so clearly desire an advantage?

I'm opposed to anything in general that categorizes human beings into different groups and proceeds to give benefits or detriments to members of those groups based on generalizations about them. Therefore, I can support neither profiling of any kind nor affirmative action.

I could have legally applied to college as a minority, and probably would have received a lot more financial aid if I had chosen to. But in my opinion it would have been dishonorable for me to do so, as I do not believe I deserve an advantage over other candidates merely because of my ethnic background.

But I think the area in which this problem is most severe is not race, but age. There are thousands of human beings under the age of 18 who are more intellectually qualified to vote than 99% of the public, yet they are denied this right because they are categorized as "minors". We tell people they can't drink until they're 21, but who knows how many people younger than that are responsible enough to handle it, or at least comparatively more responsible than the average person older than that.

I am firmly against both affirmative action, and racial profiling.
It is wrong to discriminate based on race, sex, religion etc.

arbiter sates my opinion in regards to this perfectly in the first half of his post.

however, in regards to age, it's a little tougher to discern. i think we have to put some limits on things, we can't go letting four year olds drive now can we?

or, in regards to voting, I'd agree that some 15 year olds are more competent to vote than some 75 year old florida residents. BUT, how do you determine this?

i suppose in an ideal world, you'd have some sort of IQ test, but... this is impractical, the age limit is the best way to do it, and this applies to voting, drinking, driving, "adult" material etc.

I'm against affirmitave actions for a couple reasons. The first reason is that in much of todays society a large percentage no longer has any basis for or against any group of people(at least not on a concious level), and many people who do have something against them, are the ones who lose there jobs to meet quotas. Secondly if any group wants to be equal to another group, they can not recieve any of these huge bennifits based on there skin color.

1950: racial segregation
2000: racial profiling

differnt terms for the same thing.

should I go on?

quote:

Originally posted by JohnSmith however, in regards to age, it's a little tougher to discern. i think we have to put some limits on things, we can't go letting four year olds drive now can we? or, in regards to voting, I'd agree that some 15 year olds are more competent to vote than some 75 year old florida residents. BUT, how do you determine this? i suppose in an ideal world, you'd have some sort of IQ test, but... this is impractical, the age limit is the best way to do it, and this applies to voting, drinking, driving, "adult" material etc.

Well it's obvious that four year olds ought not to be allowed to drive, but we can disqualify them on criteria other than age (i.e. the physical ability to operate a motor vehicle), so an age restriction is an unnecessary evil.

As far as voting - I don't think some form of testing is that impractical at all. If only we had a decent system of education (especially one in which students are able to progress through levels of subject material at whatever pace they are capable of), we could analyze childrens' competency with relative ease. It certainly wouldn't be as convenient as an age limit, but I think it's wrong to sacrifice our principles merely for the sake of convenience. An added benefit would be that many children might be more motivated to perform academically, if they knew they could be awarded additional rights as a citizen.

okay americansy, digame:
what exactely is racial profiling?

(i know what affirmative action is)

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant okay americansy, digame: what exactely is racial profiling? (i know what affirmative action is)

It's essentially the same thing, only backwards. Racial profiling is basically when minority groups are stereotyped and treated worse than the majority in certain area's relating to whatever stereotype follows them around.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant okay americansy, digame: what exactely is racial profiling? (i know what affirmative action is)

im completely agianst affirmative action, however i am FOR racial profiling

i will disagree with Nadi's definition of racial profiling completely. it does not have to nessaciraly deal with minorities, nor is it the cause of worse treatment. also true correct racial profiling is based not on stereotypes but rather on facts.

racial profiling is looking at statistics (of a certain race in this case) and then using that information as a guide to helping access a solution to a certain problem.

i can say that in general more jews eat matzot then non jews, and so when creating a grocery store would market a certain advertisment to a certian race of people. i have just racially profiled based on race and have reeked benifits ($).

lets look at airport security, you will see a patern that the majority of terroist acts on planes have been committed by muslims from the mid-eastern part of this earth. racial profiling says that it doesnt mean all the other groups arent likely to commit the same acts it just says that tendency shows one specific group is more prone to it. any smart man would use this information to his advantage. you can then compare this to gambling, a smart man ratehr would waste his time playing blackjack over bakara because his odds are greater at winning in blackjack, that isnt to say he couldnt win more in bakara or that bakara is actually funner to play.

we know everyone isnt equal in the way they act, we know races have diffences in the way they act. by not using profiling on any case be it religion, ethnicity, race or even age, is like deciding not to use a whole set of information, and by doing so one could possible be ignoring the most effecient solution to a problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Floorfiller i know i'm biased, but i still think it should be given to the best student, which in most cases would be someone like me

modesty my friend , modesty

quote:

Originally posted by JohnSmith however, in regards to age, it's a little tougher to discern. i think we have to put some limits on things, we can't go letting four year olds drive now can we?

Hey, if the kid can pass the written and road test fair and square, why not? :P

There was a big fuss here when the toronto star released a report showing racial profiling by the police department. Statistics show that blacks had a disporportionate number of arrests, and they are more likely to get pulled over.

Does it mean black people commit more crime? Does the police force use this information, and pull and search black people more often? Or is it racial stereotyping that caused these statistics in the first place?

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 modesty my friend , modesty

touche...but i've worked hard to get where i am and someone who hasn't doesn't deserve the same placement.

quote:

Originally posted by Floorfiller touche...but i've worked hard to get where i am and someone who hasn't doesn't deserve the same placement.

i agree with you

Izzy what u wrote is common sense, something I took for granted when it comes to dealing with threats such as terrorism. Therefore I dont really uderstand the debate about it: As i wrote in the other thread, this war for security will never be totally "clean", there'll always be "collateral damage" such as the story cyrus told us...but then again sept. 11 taught us that today's terrorism isnt a dumb act of ramapge without plan. Its a sophisticated network of independet cells based IN the "victim" countries themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy racial profiling is looking at statistics (of a certain race in this case) and then using that information as a guide to helping access a solution to a certain problem.

I dont think that terrorism constitutes as a precursor for statistics.. seeing that there isnt a large amount of data to analyze. I will admit that the few who have unfortunately terrorized airplanes have been midle eastern.. but that doesnt mean you should be cautious of all the billion or more arabs that exist in this world. Its ridiculous to profile using those reasons.

Statistics should not be welcomed so easily. Many things are labelled as statistics.. but they are manipulated at times. One must take into consideration how.. when and where the statistics were conducted and by who were the answers collected from.

quote:

i can say that in general more jews eat matzot then non jews, and so when creating a grocery store would market a certain advertisment to a certian race of people. i have just racially profiled based on race and have reeked benifits ($).

Grocery stores catering to a specific culture is not an analogy that should be compared to explain trends in terrorist activities as well.


With respect to Affirmative action.. i think its a bunch of bull shit. It totally removes the concept of qulaifications out of the books. Its doing the opposite of what should be done... making things logically unfair in my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King I dont think that terrorism constitutes as a precursor for statistics.. seeing that there isnt a large amount of data to analyze.

i beg to differ, how about that stat that the majority (if not all) of suicide bombings are done by muslims. using profiling im not saying that someone else wont strap bombs on themselves but that one group is more likely to then the next, find a solution to that has nothing to do with the profile itself. the profile is only an aid

quote:

but that doesnt mean you should be cautious of all the billion or more arabs that exist in this world. Its ridiculous to profile using those reasons.

you're right that is ridicoulus, thats why profiling is vague using only one term, such as being muslim, add to that more factors and you get a more and more accurate profile to go by. agian like gambling. just cause in a poker hand you have a pair doesnt mean you will get a full house, but if you have a double pair chances are better you will get one.
common sense tells you if you have one group more likely to commit a certian act, you will watch them more closely, thats not to say some one else will commit, all you do is pay closer attention to those who meet the ... profile

quote:

Statistics should not be welcomed so easily. Many things are labelled as statistics.. but they are manipulated at times. One must take into consideration how.. when and where the statistics were conducted and by who were the answers collected from.

statitistics can be used as pure fact, there is a one in fifty chance i will get the ace of spades, theres no way you can manipulate around that. yes one can report false and manipulated stats, but then those are just lies. stats should be anaylized as you say by how, where, when, and who took them and then objectively used as a tool to help.

quote:

Grocery stores catering to a specific culture is not an analogy that should be compared to explain trends in terrorist activities as well.

my analogy was to show how racial profiling can be used. it doesnt nessecarily have to apply to terrorism.

agian i wanna stress that everything should be done according to common sense, yes its senseless to detain someone just for being muslim but when raised with other red flags, such as being sweaty, a passport showing recent visits to both iran and iraq, oddly shaped baggage, and many other factors used for profiling then yes that does serve a justification for warranting at least a more in depth inquiry.

i don't know what is exactly the affirmative action in all its details. all i can say is that you were all fast to pinpoint its negatives points. affirmative action transformed all white police forces to a more representative forces. now cops know a second or third language because they're sons of immigrants or immigrants and can communicate with a city's multicultural population.

age is also another factor taken into consideration in some affirmative action programs. for example the govts will give an advantage to young graduate when applying for a job.

etc etc... its not all bad, it all depend on the context

In a time like this, I would not be offended at all towards racial profiling. Im sure it can get annoying but Its 100% necessary now. I dont agree with it But I can understand it. I am white and I am "racially profiled" to some extent. Everyone is. By what you do, What you wear, WHat you listen to. Everyone is going to make judgements on you your whole life. You cant stop and bitch about it. Life goes on, Forget the small stuff and just let it go. Maybe I just feel like this because I have never been racially profiled like alot of people have. But some stuff you just gotta let go.

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