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Trance is simple

Disclaimer: I love trance... really, I do. I have about 70 gigs of trance mp3's, and makes up about 2/3rds of my music collection.

I havn't visited this board in a while, and when I came back, I noticed alot of posts saying things like "trance is complicted intelligetn music". I'd like to disagree. Trance is really quite simple, formulaic, and repetitive. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but it is a fact.

Now, I know you all are going to immediately disagree with me, but for a second I want you to sit back and really analyze a trance song. Pick any generic song, you'll pretty much get the same result. In this case, i'm goign to use namistai, mainly because its my favorite trance track of all time.

Now start the song. What do we hear? Depending on the version, we have a short little intro, or it will go directly into the [bold]six minute long[/bold] buildup. Now what is this buildup? Its starts out as two instruments and a repetitive baseline that repeats itself every four beats. Now time for a little trill, add, not replace, another instrument, and continue looping the same few insturment over and over again. Now, for the melody. All the music cuts out, and one of the most beautiful trance melodies of all times kicks in. But what is this melody? Its one synth repeating the same two measures over and over again, simply changing the octave, with space sounds added in the background. Now, add the baseline to the melody, and continue looping throught the rest of the song.

Namistai is one of the better trance songs out there, many others are even more formulaic and simplistic. Not once in this song does it incorporate even the most basic simple musical techniques such as tempo change, key change, or time signature change. The number of instruments, which is actually quite large, and covers a wider range of the musical spectrum than most trance, for most trance songs, is limited to a few synths, and random space noises in the back.

My point to this is that trance, despite what you elitists think, is a very simplistic and very reptitive form of music. The emotion you all love so much is simply due to repeated themes that are so forceful that you can't help but pick up on them. Its beautiful, emotional, but really nothign ground breaking. If you want real emotion, try listening to classical music. Its so complex it would blow most of your brains.

Once again, I really love trance, but to think of it as intelligent music, or even complex and non-repitive is just plain stupid. Feel free to rebut, i'd enjoy a nice debate over this, but right now my internet access is rather limited, so it may take as long as 24 hours for a response.

edit: Before you reply, please read everything i've said, i find i'm spending alot of time rebutting the same arguments.
the point of this post is to show that trance is simplistic, not that its bad.

who gives a fuck

take a pill of e and stand center of the dancefloor and listen to the track and you might stop bitchin

since it is so simple can i see the list of your releases please

classical???? are you 60???

Youre right but you cant call it simple just because it formulaic. Why, you can analyze songs from any genre and they are all similar. Take a look at rap... you got a beat thats constant throughtout the track, a couple pauses here and there throughout the track, starts with rapping, then chorus, then rapping, then chorus, then rapping, end song. Take a look at pop... same thing just replace rapping with singing. Take a look at rock... same thing just replace beat with guitars. There you go, every genre has a common structure for the songs. If you say trance is simple then you're basically saying all music is simple.

But anyway who cares, I listen to it because I like the music not because its the most complex genre out there.

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Originally posted by InfiniteSquare who gives a fuck take a pill of e and stand center of the dancefloor and listen to the track and you might stop bitchin since it is so simple can i see the list of your releases please classical???? are you 60???

why does it take a 60 year old to enjoy classical music? Its not the form of music I listen to most, but I still enjoy it. It just takes some intelligence, and an appreciation of good music.

And the reason I posted this is because many people (if I recall, you have said this too) say "trance is so intelligent and complex". It is not, and therefore should not be treated as such. you're still perfectly welcome to listen to it and enjoy as you like, but you shouldn't falsely claim its complex intelligent music.

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Originally posted by Rakoon Youre right but you cant call it simple just because it formulaic. Why, you can analyze songs from any genre and they are all similar. Take a look at rap... you got a beat thats constant throughtout the track, a couple pauses here and there throughout the track, starts with rapping, then chorus, then rapping, then chorus, then rapping, end song. Take a look at pop... same thing just replace rapping with singing. Take a look at rock... same thing just replace beat with guitars. There you go, every genre has a common structure for the songs. If you say trance is simple then you're basically saying all music is simple. But anyway who cares, I listen to it because I like the music not because its the most complex genre out there.

I never said it was simple because its formulaic, I said its simple because it has a limited number of "instruments" which are all repetitive, uses very little musical techniques such as time changes, key changes, etc... and has large amounts of wasted time. Buildups are great and all, but its almost as if the producers just plain give up.

Hip hop and rap have the same problems, but they also genrally have vocals that require some talent. Pop, aside from what you think, actually does not repeat near as much, uses a variety of musical techniques, and generally has music all the way through. Not that I like pop, but musically, its much more in depth than trance. Rock even more so.

And the whole point of this thread as I said previously, is not to put down trance, but to show you all that trance really is not "complex" or "intelligent", as so many of you seem to think. Its great music to listen to yes, but its nothing revolutionary.

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Originally posted by Rakoon But anyway who cares, I listen to it because I like the music not because its the most complex genre out there.

i agree with you in this point ..
i dont listen to any song expecting that i will say:
"OMFG, this song is so intelligent !"

Actually ALL music is relatively simplistic, carrying out simple patterns of melody....

Is there something wrong with something being simple?(music in general)
Does everything HAVE to be so complicated?

Maybe a person who thinks the opposite should sit back and enjoy the beauty of simplicity in nature for example.

Techno also looks complicated... but at the end is actually even more simple to do than trance, someday you find a sound that is good and you take it, but you cant build a synth line from nothing, theres some clasical elements to working with string, like harmony, otherwise your tune ends up like some really crappy one which feel like someone pressed the "random" button on the pattern generator and trhu the synth in.

Also heavy heavy metal band dont know shit about music, they just play sound, much like tecno, which at the end to me is percussion, selling a posse to people who think they are bad ass....anyways

think it this way
Music=Has to have melody!, otherwise its percusions much like a drum.
Trance is more music than much of the other electronic music styles.

I really think this thread is somewhat useless because of the above
I dont like trance cause its complicated, I like it cause I like it

Also, there are some crappy complicated tracks in trance and some reallly kewl simple ones, the same can be said of all music.

that

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Originally posted by vitorsl i agree with you in this point .. i dont listen to any song expecting that i will say: "OMFG, this song is so inteligent !"

once again, i'm going to point out the fact that this post was intended to disillusion all you elitists who think trance is intelligent and complex. Its not, I enjoy it yes, but its not anything more intelligent than pop or hip-hop, etc...

Ok, first off, you are refering to melodic trance, not progressive.

Trance IS formulatic but it has to be since it is dance music. Most people dance to a 4/4 beat because it is easy for them to feel. Also, you can't have tempo or time signature changes because that would make mixing it nearly impossible for the DJ. Also, as far as those "space noises" and effects, a lot of artistry goes into those effects. If Delerium - Silence (tiesto mix) didn't have that weird siren sound hitting right at the end of the build up along with the filter cut-off rolling to zero at the exact same time you wouldn't get those chills going down your spine and that crowd in the background of Magik 6 wouldn't be screaming with joys of ecstacy.

As for key changes, this happens vary rarely and probably cause it reminds a lot of people of progressive rock and can possibly turn a song into cheese. The only song I know of that has a key change is Paul Van Dyk - Another Way which is not cheese.

As for repeating melodies and basslines, yes it is very true that these tend to be repetative, but how else can you trance out without something to put you in a trance first? It's the rare change in music, the minimalistic quiet breakdown which gives you the euphoria and the energy.

As for complexity, have you ever listened to some tracks with good headphones on? You can have 6-8 tracks of sounds doing different things all at the same time. For that matter, you should try composing some trance. Making a trance song that is truely emotional and euphoric without being cheese or copying is hard as hell.

But what the hell, we don't enjoy music because of its intelligence or complexity, we enjoy it because it makes us feel a certain way.

i think you need to look beyond the beats.....otherwise your not getting the true experience of Trance.....your ears are aware of the noise ad ur mind can register the diferent notes....but its when your emotions sub-conciously become attacked by the sound and you feel the music, as oppose to hearing it....

You have to look past the beats and the structure of the track....

You statement is very similar to saying a poet who rhymes about berries and grapes or a poet who rhymes about buildings and pavement...yet when you look beyond his chosen words and see the meanining and emotion beyind what he is trying to convey do yo truley understand his meaning.....

OPEN YOUR MIND....

quote:

Originally posted by dyson Actually ALL music is relatively simplistic, carrying out simple patterns of melody....

not true, although all music has common threads, certain geanrea's, such as classical, jazz, even some rock and metal, have a wide variety of melodies. Also, they generally have melodies that last a much longer time than four measures. Take Cannon in D major, the melody is really hard to pick out, because the entire song is the melody, certain parts may be repeated (although never more than once), but its all melody essentially. On the other end of teh spectrum, take metallica - master of puppets. There are actually several "melodies" in this song, all of which are quite long.

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Is there something wrong with something being simple?(music in general) Does everything HAVE to be so complicated?

once again, I never said it was bad because its simple... I said that the general attitude of the TA forum is that trance is complicated
and intelligent, which it is not

quote:

Techno also looks complicated... but at the end is actually even more simple to do than trance, someday you find a sound that is good and you take it, but you cant build a synth line from nothing, theres some clasical elements to working with string, like harmony, otherwise your tune ends up like some really crappy one which feel like someone pressed the "random" button on the pattern generator and trhu the synth in.

these same arguments apply to virtually all geanreas of electronic music, I chose trance because this is the TA forum, and you all think trance is intelligent and complex.

quote:

Also heavy heavy metal band dont know shit about music, they just play sound, much like tecno, which at the end to me is percussion, selling a posse to people who think they are bad ass....anyways

you konw, I dont really like metal, but some of those guys really do actually have musical backgrounds, and i've heard more musical talent coming out of them than I have from PvD.

quote:

think it this way Music=Has to have melody!, otherwise its percusions much like a drum. Trance is more music than much of the other electronic music styles.

whats your point?

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I really think this thread is somewhat useless because of the above I dont like trance cause its complicated, I like it cause I like it

once again, you're missing the point of this thread...

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Also, there are some crappy complicated tracks in trance and some reallly kewl simple ones, the same can be said of all music.

again, whats your point?

progressive is simple, boring, and not very entertaining. trance isnt. and yes people like chicane, BT make more complex tracks, but who gives a fuck?

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Originally posted by FuzzyGreen Ok, first off, you are refering to melodic trance, not progressivie.

whats yoru point? give me some progressive songs and i'll disassemble them with similiar results.

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Trance IS formulatic but it has to be since it is dance music. Most people dance to a 4/4 beat because it is easy for them to feel.

true, but that does not make it any less simplistic.

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Also, you can't have tempo or time signature changes because that would make mixing it nearly impossible for the DJ.

see previous argument.

quote:

Also, as far as those "space noises" and effects, a lot of artistry goes into those effects. If Delerium - Silence (tiesto mix) didn't have that weird siren sound hitting right at the end of the build up along with the filter cut-off rolling to zero at the exact same time you wouldn't get those chills going down your spine and that crowd in the background of Magik 6 wouldn't be screaming with joys of ecstacy.

sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I didn't say space noises were bad, I simply used the term "space noises" because I was at a lack of words to describe them. Yes, they sound very cool, and add to the music quite a bit. This is one thing trance has that most music doesnt have, and is the first real point as to why it could be considered complex.

quote:

As for key changes, this happens vary rarely and probably cause it reminds a lot of people of progressive rock and can possibly turn a song into cheese. The only song I know of that has a key change is Paul Van Dyk - Another Way which is not cheese. As for repeating melodies and basslines, yes it is very true that these tend to be repetative, but how else can you trance out without something to put you in a trance first? It's the rare change in music, the minimalistic quiet breakdown which gives you the euphoria and the energy.

once again, just because theres a reason for why its simple doesnt make it any less so, please, stick to the original argument.

quote:

As for complexity, have you ever listened to some tracks with good headphones on? You can have 6-8 tracks of sounds doing different things all at the same time. For that matter, you should try composing some trance. Making a trance song that is truely emotional and euphoric without being cheese or copying is hard as hell.

this is a good thing why?

quote:

But what the hell, we don't enjoy music because of its intelligence or complexity, we enjoy it because it makes us feel a certain way.

need I say again? its not that I dont like it, i'm jsut trying to correct the misconception that trance is complex and intelligent.

quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 i think you need to look beyond the beats.....otherwise your not getting the true experience of Trance.....your ears are aware of the noise ad ur mind can register the diferent notes....but its when your emotions sub-conciously become attacked by the sound and you feel the music, as oppose to hearing it.... You have to look past the beats and the structure of the track....

you're missing the point of this thread in the first place, please re-read my previous posts.

quote:

You statement is very similar to saying a poet who rhymes about berries and grapes or a poet who rhymes about buildings and pavement...yet when you look beyond his chosen words and see the meanining and emotion beyind what he is trying to convey do yo truley understand his meaning.....

no, I think a better anology wold be a poet that rhymes using lyrmics and a poet that uses free form. you could use the same words, slightly rearranged, but due to the structure of the poem, the meaning can be massively different.

quote:

OPEN YOUR MIND....

uhh, this reply really didn't show me of any "mind opening", perhaps you should try some yourself.

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Originally posted by Nell progressive is simple, boring, and not very entertaining. trance isnt. and yes people like chicane, BT make more complex tracks, but who gives a fuck?

just out of curiousity, what does this have to do with ANYTHING i've said?

and I dont want this to become a trance vs progressive flame war, so lets try to avoid future posts like this.

chahhahahahha

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Originally posted by branmuffin this is a good thing why? need I say again? its not that I dont like it, i'm jsut trying to correct the misconception that trance is complex and intelligent.

Ok, when I was taking classes on music theory back in college I used to have a chip on my shoulder similar to yours. I would listen to a song in a club and think, "wow this is really a simple song, all it has is a repeating bassline, the same drum loop, and some small break with a simple melody". People would be dancing around and feeling good listening to the track and I would say to my friend, "this music is so simple, why do people like it?" and then my friend would say, if it is so simple how about making a better song then. So I went to my studio and created some complex songs. Everyone liked them, but no one LOVED them, they were just lacking something. Well after years and years trying to figure out what talent is needed to make a good song I found out that the real talent and complexity in composing a song is in the emotions generated by the song, not the complexity of the melody or the complexity of the rhythem. So in that sense I think that Trance is one of the most complex types of music out there.

quote:

Originally posted by branmuffin not true, although all music has common threads, certain geanrea's, such as classical, jazz, even some rock and metal, have a wide variety of melodies. Also, they generally have melodies that last a much longer time than four measures. Take Cannon in D major, the melody is really hard to pick out, because the entire song is the melody, certain parts may be repeated (although never more than once), but its all melody essentially. On the other end of teh spectrum, take metallica - master of puppets. There are actually several "melodies" in this song, all of which are quite long.

Music follows patterns, if you know the patterns you can make any music, so at the end, the more you now the better, and that makes it simpler for you

quote:

Originally posted by branmuffin once again, I never said it was bad because its simple... I said that the general attitude of the TA forum is that trance is complicated and intelligent, which it is not.

I dont think trance is that much intelligent either, but you dont have to be that much intelligent to make music in the first place, really dumb people can make really good tunes

quote:

Originally posted by branmuffin these same arguments apply to virtually all geanreas of electronic music, I chose trance because this is the TA forum, and you all think trance is intelligent and complex.

No I dont

quote:

Originally posted by branmuffin you konw, I dont really like metal, but some of those guys really do actually have musical backgrounds, and i've heard more musical talent coming out of them than I have from PvD.

mmm maybe

The point is that if trance is or were simple, there is a whole other horde of simpler music, and you are complaining to much.
Folklore music for example in some country's NEVER changes the melody, only changes the lyrics, its true I heard em

also the point was that, if its simple it doesnt really matter. I have thought it to be simple to, but I like it anyways.

quote:

Originally posted by FuzzyGreen Well after years and years trying to figure out what talent is needed to make a good song I found out that the real talent and complexity in composing a song is in the emotions generated by the song, not the complexity of the melody or the complexity of the rhythem. So in that sense I think that Trance is one of the most complex types of music out there.

DEAR GOD THAT IS SO F**KIN' TRUE!!!

I would like to here more about this little experimento of yours.

Also, I read somewhere that repetitive music has a way of making you feel trancy, and 4/4 beats have a biological effect on the body, continuos beats are less stressing than break beat for example, and when you have a killer sound system and you breath and the bass pounds, it kick inside your lungs and your heart adjusts itself to the rythm. It actually sound much like what Ive felt, I even checked my pulse one time

euphoria!

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Originally posted by dyson really dumb people can mas really good tunes

How do you define a dumb person? They may be a musical genious yet be a Highschool dropout. How is one person to judge how smart another one is? I don't know shit about calc, but I can sure make a mean spicy fried rice.

quote:

Originally posted by FuzzyGreen How do you define a dumb person? They may be a musical genious yet be a Highschool dropout. How is one person to judge how smart another one is? I don't know shit about calc, but I can sure make a mean spicy fried rice.

I dont know :S it was just the concept
I dont think of myself as that much intelligent anyways
but Im good at calculus

quote:

Originally posted by dyson Also, I read somewhere that repetitive music has a way of making you feel trancy, and 4/4 beats have a biological effect on the body, continuos beats are less stressing than break beat for example, and when you have a killer sound system and you breath and the bass pounds, it kick inside your lungs and your heart adjusts itself to the rythm. It actually sound much like what Ive felt, I even checked my pulse one time euphoria!

A BPM of 138 is VERY close to the BPM of the average human heartbeat. Most trance is played near that same BPM.

for your information, trance is not meant to be listened to individually, song-by-song. why do you think there are repetitive intros and outros? so that whiners like you can have a case against trance? NO! it's because it's DESIGNED for the DJ. this is how dj's can make long, seamless mixes, and produce such wonderful feelings of euphoria and joy to all listeners - and dancers - alike!

maybe you should go out and hit a trance party for once, and see how trance is MEANT to be experienced. NOT by sitting at home listening to individual mp3's.

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Originally posted by branmuffin It is not, and therefore should not be treated as such. you're still perfectly welcome to listen to it and enjoy as you like, but you shouldn't falsely claim its complex intelligent music.

OK, so go back to sitting in your armchair, listening to your "complex" and "intelligent" classical music, while i probe the emotive depths of the human soul with my trance.

have a good day.

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Originally posted by FuzzyGreen A BPM of 138 is VERY close to the BPM of the average human heartbeat. Most trance is played near that same BPM.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. If you had a heartbeat of 138 we'd be bringing you into the emergency room. Try about 70 or 80.

BPM around 138 is conducive to energetic dancing. Much higher than that and we feel uncomfortable moving to the beat.

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