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Posted by JohnSmith on Jan-26-2003 14:46:
Israel attacks Gaza City
http://cbc.ca/storyview/MSN/2003/01/25/mideast_030125
When will a coalition of the willing disarm israel?
why does the UN tolerate their continus attacks on the palestinians?
this has to stop.
Posted by oDrori on Jan-26-2003 15:08:
Indeed not a necessary action IMO. Gaza's people did attack Israeli civillians, killing them in the dozens and in relatively horryifying actions of shooting and suicide bombing actions ... It shoot stop too.
Posted by Az on Jan-26-2003 15:50:
Re: Israel attacks Gaza City
You're absolutely right, it has to stop.....
anyone else see the similarities between Sharon and Hitler?
just me.....oh
Posted by TranceGiant on Jan-26-2003 18:05:
Re: Re: Israel attacks Gaza City
| quote: |
Originally posted by Az
You're absolutely right, it has to stop.....
anyone else see the similarities between Sharon and Hitler?
just me.....oh
|
God Az, stop being so fucking stupid, okay?
Posted by Izzy on Jan-26-2003 18:29:
| quote: |
Originally posted by oDrori
Indeed not a necessary action IMO. Gaza's people did attack Israeli civillians, killing them in the dozens and in relatively horryifying actions of shooting and suicide bombing actions ... It shoot stop too. |
well, ya, actually they did, people from gaza have attacked and killed dozens of israelis and this is just in the past month.
i think you guys see this as an offensive action taken by israel while i completely see this as defensive. i think that most of you when reading up on the incedent fail to read a paragraph that appears in most of them
it is a sad state of the world if a country can not defend itself after its own land is attacked
| quote: |
Originally posted by JohnSmith
why does the UN tolerate their continus attacks on the palestinians?
|
why does the UN tolerate the palestinians continuos attacks on the israelis?
| quote: |
http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/0125-1.stm
On January 24, five Kassam missiles were launched from the Palestinian town of Beit Hanun in the Gaza Strip. The missiles landed in Israeli civilian communities located inside Israeli territory.
|
JohnSmith, i would have at least expected you to not make this as one-sided as you are presenting it now. you make it seem, and i know thats not what you think, that this is all of israel's fault.
Posted by Arbiter on Jan-26-2003 20:37:
Ask yourself these two questions:
If the Palestinians stopped killing Israelis, would the Israelis continue killing Palestinians?
If the Israelis stopped killing Palestinians, would the Palestinians continue killing Israelis?
Then you ought to see what has to happen first, if peace is to be achieved.
Posted by Izzy on Jan-26-2003 22:46:
| quote: |
Originally posted by Arbiter
Ask yourself these two questions:
If the Palestinians stopped killing Israelis, would the Israelis continue killing Palestinians?
If the Israelis stopped killing Palestinians, would the Palestinians continue killing Israelis?
Then you ought to see what has to happen first, if peace is to be achieved. |
elegantly said
Posted by Cyrus King on Jan-27-2003 01:04:
I still dont see how the demolishon and murder of the underdog will successfully solve this problem. Sharon makes me sick... he carries the same disgusting qualities as did Hitler.
How is this going to further peace.. its only feuling the cyclical hatred that results in the death of innocent civilians on both sides.
when Timothy McVeigh bombed that building.... would it have been a smart idea to demolish all who inhabited his home town... "you know.. that would weed out terrorists" as Isreal proclaims.
Give me a fucking break!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Eugene on Jan-27-2003 01:10:
| quote: |
Originally posted by Cyrus King
I still dont see how the demolishon and murder of the underdog will successfully solve this problem.
|
You mention "murder of the underdog" but forget that this is a response to the murder of innocent civilians every day, every week, in buses and clubs, on the streets, everywhere... it's a response to terrorism. And terrorism has to stop first.
Posted by JM on Jan-27-2003 02:42:
Re: Israel attacks Gaza City
heh?
why does the world tolerate terrorist acts, or the assholes blowing themselves up in subways? well, the world doesnt - they retaliate.
why does the UN tolerate palestenians continuous attacks on the israelis?
hmm....
>JM<
ps. to Az, i'll dismiss your ignorant statement, as i know you're just trying to stir shit up.
Posted by Cyrus King on Jan-27-2003 05:39:
| quote: |
Originally posted by Eugene
You mention "murder of the underdog" but forget that this is a response to the murder of innocent civilians every day, every week, in buses and clubs, on the streets, everywhere... it's a response to terrorism. And terrorism has to stop first. |
I think you are forgetting to mention that Israel is commiting atrocious acts of violence too..and its called STATE TERRORISM.... that is why this is all cyclical.
Posted by JohnSmith on Jan-27-2003 06:30:
| quote: |
Originally posted by Izzy
JohnSmith, i would have at least expected you to not make this as one-sided as you are presenting it now. you make it seem, and i know thats not what you think, that this is all of israel's fault. |
I was not trying to make this seem onesided, merely stating a link to a news story i read. in fact, what i said is this has to stop, and it must, on BOTH sides. I agree, palestinians are killing israelis as well and both sides are wrong and need to make amends.
I found it especially amusing though, how you accues me of being one sided, for posting a link from CBC, and then post one yourself from the israeli defence force.
to reiterate, BOTH sides are wrong, is that clear now? sorry if my posting one article made it seem like i was for or against either side.
| quote: |
posted by arbiter
Ask yourself these two questions:
If the Palestinians stopped killing Israelis, would the Israelis continue killing Palestinians?
If the Israelis stopped killing Palestinians, would the Palestinians continue killing Israelis?
Then you ought to see what has to happen first, if peace is to be achieved. |
I am interested to hear your, and everyones answers to these 2 questions. personally, i think that neither would stop if the other did, there is to much hatred and bad blood there for forgiveness to come i fear. 
Posted by Yoepus on Jan-27-2003 07:30:
Re: Re: Israel attacks Gaza City
| quote: |
Originally posted by Az
You're absolutely right, it has to stop.....
anyone else see the similarities between Sharon and Hitler?
just me.....oh
|
| quote: |
Originally posted by Cyrus King
Sharon makes me sick... he carries the same disgusting qualities as did Hitler. |
no, no, I think cyrus king sees the exact same similarities as you Az. Funny how he shares the same quality with you, the quality, as trance giant so elegantly put it, of "being so fucking stupid".
Posted by Yoepus on Jan-27-2003 07:49:
| quote: |
Originally posted by JohnSmith
I was not trying to make this seem onesided, merely stating a link to a news story i read. in fact, what i said is this has to stop, and it must, on BOTH sides. I agree, palestinians are killing israelis as well and both sides are wrong and need to make amends. |
You seem to be so idealisitcally blind. Wait wait, thats not a good way to start.. lets try starting on a positive note;
You have very good and hopeful views, if it were not for one thing. Nations, like people are not perfect, nor will they ever be. Therefore the actions that they take will never be perfect, nor can be held up against perfect ideals and equal critized for unequal violations. You have to understand that, just as nothing you can do will ever be perfect, nothing such as this situation will ever be perfect as well. But there still is a strong difference from you doing something good, excellent, ok, and you doing something bad.
Israel, an imperfect country, as it is not heaven or utopia, as neither any other place I know on this earth claims to be, is confronting the current crisis in the best possible manner it knows how, or in another term, in the least imperfect way possible. If you do not understand this, then I can not explain my notion further to you, and I believe either more time and experience will need to be gained by you individually throughout your life to come to this realization. Some people, however, live their lives in blind idealism and never come to embrace the true life that we live. I hope this not be the case with you.
Now if you do understand the notion, then you should understand it in the context. What you are holding Israel up to is a perfect ideal - you are comparing heaven to Israel, and then saying, "Look Israel, you should become heaven". But this will never be, humans are imperfect creatures, and their creations - such as governments - will therefore be inherintly imperfect as well.
What you can try to say, is "Look Israel, you might want to do this a bit better, as I think it is possible and in your betterment to achieve the quest prefectionism". What I mean is you can say "You are doing this thing bad". But then you would have to put it in the context of saying "But this is how you can make it better". Without the context, you are comparing it to heaven, not to reality.
| quote: |
| I found it especially amusing though, how you accues me of being one sided, for posting a link from CBC, and then post one yourself from the israeli defence force. |
He was acusing you of being one sided from your critique and comments, not from the trivial news sources. I find both the CBC report, and the IDF report trivial, and hard to deny from my position.
| quote: |
| to reiterate, BOTH sides are wrong, is that clear now? sorry if my posting one article made it seem like i was for or against either side. |
Yes, fair, both sides are wrong - both sides are imperfect, I agree. Though I felt that you implied that both sides are EQUALLY wrong, and with this I have to disagree. Before I begin my speel, though, let me know if you think this is the case, otherwise I won't waste my breath.
| quote: |
| I am interested to hear your, and everyones answers to these 2 questions. personally, i think that neither would stop if the other did, there is to much hatred and bad blood there for forgiveness to come i fear. |
Look you have to understand form a realist view that the instinctual responses in your head (or your not rational) that you deny are indeed true. And I will explain this form a purely rational humanistic view.
If Israel would stop killing Palestinians, would the Palestinians stop?
No! But why? Well they would not stop because they have not achieved what they claim they're objective is. Regardless, they are incontent with the current (or old) "status quo" and therefore are killing Israelis. Believeing that Israel will end hostilites, and reverting back to the old "status quo" will solve this problem is the main irrational inconsistancy here that leads you to instincitly answer, "no the palestinians will not stop killing Israelis".
If the Palestinians stop killing Israelis, would Israel stop?
Yes! But why? Well simple, Israel wants the old "status quo". They are comfortable being in a stable secure environment. They subscribe to a live and let live policy. I live next door to you, you live next door to me. The old "status quo" worked for Israelis. They simply want a peaceful solution, not a political one. Therefore it is rational to believe, Israel pertianing to a live and let live policy, that Yes, Israel will not kill Palestinians if they do not kill Israelis (and thereby threaten Israel). This rational is why your instinicts echo "yes".
I hope this summarized my view, and enlightened a few of your points.
Posted by JohnSmith on Jan-27-2003 20:33:
I am fully aware that nothing human is ever perfect, this is obvious from the state of the world today. Believe me, i don't need more experiences in my life to understand this, try not to make assumptions. In staying in school through a very tough college program, staying at a job that pays little more than shit, and treats me worse, getting a set of turntables, sucking on them and getting better all the time, and most importantly, staying with the same girlfriend through it all for 8 years, i think i have come to understand that nothing is perfect.
however, one thing i have learned is to always STRIVE to achieve that perfection which you cannot reach. you know, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? I do not expect israel to be heaven or perfect.
However, i expect them to STRIVE towards a solution, and i simply do not see sharon doing that right now. I don't think sending tanks into a civillian area is doing "the best they can", even if terrorists are reported to have come there. shall i come to Georgia and start invading with tanks because WHISC (formally known as The School of the Americas http://www.soaw.org/, where many of the worlds most skilled terrorists have been taught) is based there?
both sides are wrong, at least that much we agree on. which side is more wrong? i can't say. Personally, i hold israel much more accountable, as sharon is the leader of a democratic country, and is ordering the attacks. The palestinians are wrong as well, for bombing innocent civillians, but this is not government sanctioned. it is the last desperate actions of a people who feel there land is being taken away. are they right or wrong about that? I don't know. but the fact remains, they act as individuals not as a country. The IDF may say that arafat encourages and pays the families of suicide bombers, but i have not seen unrefuted proof from a reliable source of this yet. if you have such, then please show me.
as far as your answers to the 2 questions of who would stop killing who, i don't know the answer. history says neither, as both have violated countless ceasefires and treaties. however, one could argue the killing never stopped from either side in that case.
Posted by Izzy on Jan-27-2003 23:47:
| quote: |
Originally posted by JohnSmith
The palestinians are wrong as well, for bombing innocent civillians, but this is not government sanctioned. it is the last desperate actions of a people who feel there land is being taken away.
|
terrorism of the same sort has been going on before (i refered to a suicide bus attack in 1978 in a past thread) and started even before the foundation of israel as a country therefore these are not the 'last desperate actions of a people who feel there land is being taken away.'
| quote: |
but the fact remains, they act as individuals not as a country. The IDF may say that arafat encourages and pays the families of suicide bombers, but i have not seen unrefuted proof from a reliable source of this yet. if you have such, then please show me.
|
im answering specficily to that and i apologize if this comes off as propoganda, i am presenting this as factual proof.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0lom0
http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/1226-2.stm
http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/1225-3.stm
http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/1106-7.stm
http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/1123-5.stm
http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/1101.stm
http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/sari.stm
http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/1106-1.stm (!)
http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/1127-1.stm (!)
http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/wante.stm (!)
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002...ain523604.shtml
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast...ents/index.html (!)
the ones marked with (!) present a strong proof, you can actually see the documents in the cnn.com one.
now we all now that there are these independent orginizations in palestine (hamas, islamic jihad) which are seperate from the government (as you said) and encourage terrorism, yet arafat has done nothing to put an effort to disbanding these orginizations. its especially disturbing seeing as Al-aqsa martyr brigade is a branch of fatah, which falls directly under the PLO's athority. if memory serves me correct at least the USA had the FBI going after WHISC for its practices, to bad the governing body of palestine doesnt do anything to rid itself of those types of groups - hence israel doing it for them.
Posted by malek on Jan-28-2003 00:06:
how convienient, look at all those .il sites !!!
Posted by Izzy on Jan-28-2003 00:19:
| quote: |
Originally posted by ahlamalek
how convienient, look at all those .il sites !!! |
when you have undeniable proof of something, the side presenting it has no relevance. proof and facts in and of themselves are and should be presented objectively. there are direct documents and quotes of palestinian government officials. do you belive and independent journalsit can just walk into the PLO central command and steal / find / ask for these documents? the only possible way one can attain such information is the IDF. i am kinda offended that you belive that the israeli government would fabricate and lie to that great of detail and precision. although it is wise never to fully trust anyone, some apathy towards evidence has to be considered.
Posted by malek on Jan-28-2003 00:27:
i will reply with these words:
cross reference your info
Posted by Arbiter on Jan-28-2003 00:39:
| quote: |
Originally posted by JohnSmith
I am interested to hear your, and everyones answers to these 2 questions. |
If the Israelis stopped killing the Palestinians, the terror obviously would not cease, for reasons Yoepus elucidated quite nicely.
On the other hand, if the Palestinians stopped killing the Israelis, the situation would be a bit more complicated. I don't think the Israelis would immediately halt their occasionally overzealous military activities against the Palestinians. However, if no terrorist activities occurred for a prolonged period of time, I don't see what remaining justification the Israelis could give for such operations. It would no longer be in their interest to conduct them, because these operations, which are by no means free, would be serving no other purpose than to garner bad publicity for them worldwide.
The plight of the Palestinian people is a difficult one. What I would recommend for them is seeking the same kind of peaceful pseduo-sovereignty that the Native American peoples have in the U.S. as part of Israel. I don't think that at this point, giving them land and full sovereignty is a realistic option for the following reasons:
1. Their legal and moral claims to the land are highly dubious.
2. They, as an ethnic group, have chosen a mechanism for obtaining redress of their concerns [that being, terrorism], which is so immoral as to require the denial of whatever requests they are making, regardless of the extent to which those requests are justifiable.
3. Their organizational heirarchy, when given the opportunity to demonstrate capability for governance, has failed miserably. One can't help but assume that a Palestinian nation would be highly unstable.
4. Granting them full sovereignty would set a most dangerous precedent, whereby previously nonexsistent ethnic groups could suddenly claim existence based upon some regional (or other) relationship and claim to have a right to soverignty. This would only serve to further factionalize the world political order... creating the sort of environment that tends to lead to war.
I'm sure people will question the accuracy of the sites Izzy posted. However, all you really need to look at is the last one. It demonstrates clearly a relationship between Arafat and terrorism, and, if it were inaccurate in any way, would have immediately been demonstrated to be in error by Canadian or EU press organizations.
Regards,
Arbiter
Posted by malek on Jan-28-2003 01:19:
| quote: |
Originally posted by Arbiter
1. Their legal and moral claims to the land are highly dubious.
|
man you just lost the respect I had for you!! your posts were always on target, but this time you fucked it... say what you will, people living there for a 1000 years can't get removed from on day to the other... they'll fight back.
Posted by Arbiter on Jan-28-2003 02:18:
| quote: |
Originally posted by ahlamalek
man you just lost the respect I had for you!! your posts were always on target, but this time you fucked it... say what you will, people living there for a 1000 years can't get removed from on day to the other... they'll fight back. |
Who lived there before those 1000 years, never having consentually departed? [Moral]
Who legally owned that land as a colony prior to the existence of Israel? [Legal]
Posted by JohnSmith on Jan-28-2003 03:41:
Well, i didn't even bother to read all the idf ones, i have been to the site, i know what is printed there. propaganda pure and simple. same with the israeli govt one, maybe not outright lies, but severly slanted at the very least. i checked the CNN one, and it seems like "proof" i suppose. However, CNN is, aguably, the single most biased western news network in the western world. Maybe second to fox news, but that is debatable.
in any case, even CNN says
| quote: |
"I think it's up to Israel to prove that they're real," said Palestine Liberation Organization legal adviser Diana Buttu. "The Israeli government, over the past week, has denied freedom of the press. Israeli journalists themselves are saying that they're unable to verify any of the claims made by the Israeli government or investigate any of the claims of the Israeli government."
The Israel Defense Forces contend the documents were found in Arafat's Ramallah, West Bank, compound and are part of truckloads of documents Israel is looking over.
|
contend! where is the proof? where is the admission from arafat? the tracking of money?
like malek has said, where are your cross references?
The cbs link talks more about iraq and iran than it does about palestine. but even then, the connections are implied, a confession from a terrorist (could have been bribed, tortured, or otherwise coerced into saying anything) terrorists were trained in iran and iraq (could have only used as a location, not sanctioned by the govt.) etc.
all of this is still very circumstantial. for the record, i believe that arafat wants israel out, and is not stopping hamas or al-aqsa because he wants to see israelis die. and for the record, my mind is not made up on the score, i've been reading up on it on my spare time.
however, i do not think, that the evidence at THIS time, is sufficient to start rolling tanks into the gaza strip and firing missiles into crowds from helicopters.
Posted by JohnSmith on Jan-28-2003 03:45:
| quote: |
Originally posted by Izzy
if memory serves me correct at least the USA had the FBI going after WHISC for its practices, to bad the governing body of palestine doesnt do anything to rid itself of those types of groups - hence israel doing it for them. |
the SOA was run by the US army. I hardly think the FBI would be going after them. as always, show me, maybe i will believe. and even if you show me, i can assure you, it's all for show. the FBI might have "launched an investigation" to satisfy the public, but i'm sure if it even happened nothing was done.
similar to the way Arafat "condemns terrorism" but i doubt he is doing anything about it, if not actively encouraging it.
Posted by Yoepus on Jan-28-2003 04:45:
| quote: |
Originally posted by JohnSmith
CNN is, aguably, the single most biased western news network in the western world. Maybe second to fox news, but that is debatable. |
Please argue it!
You seem to have a common preconcieved distrust. You refusing to visit IDF sites on the notion that you believe them to be "false and pure propoganda" (and I'm paraphrasing), will never help you achieve the truth of the situation. You must examine the links, review the content, use logic and rational, and then contend, is this true? How do I know this? Or are they lying to me, why? How can I tell?
Just as I am sure that you believe whitehouse.gov, and cia.gov web posts are not inaccurate, as well as your Canadain ministries informational web sites, why then would you radically disbelieve anything Israeli ministries say when they submit such information?
All I can say is this, and I quote form the CNN article: | quote: |
| "When asked about claims by Palestinians that Israel is fabricating such documents, Eisen said. "I stand here as an officer in military intelligence of the IDF of our own credibility as a state. We're a democratic state and we do not fabricate lies. We found this within the compound that we entered over the last weekend and stand by these documents." |
I am still suprised, how often you submit links to uncredible sites on this forum you believe, such as independent media, with no incentive for credibility, and you disagree with information coming from the words of some government, which carries their honor, reputation, and respect to their people, and people across the world, with great incentive not to be caught lying, or fabricating truths. Its just simply hypocritical and irrational.
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