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RAVE Act Analysis, Part 2

I closed the other thread because i felt that last nite, i was not in the brightest of moods and used foul names to represent certain peoples. I am sorry for that. I will try to be more respectful in this analysis. i ask for the same respect back as if this was a debate. State your opinions and i will try to respond as much as i can. If you checkmate me, i guess u win and i will secede my argument.
Now i've just barely started into political science so i am using sort of a "guideline" to present my views. ok, let's begin

A bill was presented to the the 107th congress last year concerning the "club scene" and its relation to many drug-use paraphenilia. It claimed that raves were an event that was sugarcoated by promoters and managers to hide the deep drug scene within it. The 107th Congress was dismissed and now the bill will be arriving in 2003 to continue the analysis of raves and drugs.
The bill is named RAVE, an acronym for Reducing American's Vulnerability to Ecstasy. The bill's sole purpose is to disrupt the rave scene by targetting the majority of ravers and clubbers who use drugs in these events.

www.endef.org/s22633

quote:

Rather than going after drug users or drug dealers, this legistlation targetted music promoters, venue managers and land owners

The question at hand is:
Who is to blame for the RAVE act?

In my opinion, the main suspects at hand are the people who take the drugs, and not only them, but the dealers, and also the promoters who fail to set up any kind of thorough screening for drugs. let's analyze all three.

The people who take the drugs
I feel these people are most responsible for the creation of the RAVE act. They take the drugs. They make the desicion to keep drugs in the clubbing and raving scene. As long as there is drugs in the scene, the government will not relent. I've also come to the point that:
If RAVE does pass and raves become illegal, why do people like me who don't take drugs have to pay for it? I go to have a nice time, listen to music, talk to DJs, hell, even take a picture with armin. And now because of the people who take drugs, my right to club is now forbidden. People are going to keep taking drugs, The government will keep pushing RAVE. People stop taking drugs, the government will burn the document and bury it in some foreign island...get the picture. RAVE isn't about neighbors complaining of the loud volume, or the high traffic a town recieves when a big name DJ comes around, it's abuot the drugs and that's all they care about. everytime u take a puff of this in a club, or a drop of that in a club, u are adding to the power of RAVE.

the dealers
Dealers bring the drugs of course. and where do they take their drugs? TO THE CLUB...TO THE RAVE. And who buys these drugs? ravers, clubbers. And what do they do with the drug? They injest it, and add to RAVE. They don't stick a gun in the user's face and say "take this or i will shoot you." Every raver has the choice to add more cases to RAVE or not. Someone tries to deal with me? I say no, but i know he's got someone else in line who would love to add to RAVE. They are always going to be around, unless we do something about it like, ummmm, NOT BUYING THE DRUG. No drugs...no RAVE....just like magic!

the promoters
There is no chance in hell that promoters are not going to get any beef. I live in San Diego and when i go the record store, i often see flyers for raves around the socal area. Ok, what's wrong with setting up an event? Nothing of course, except that 99% of these flyers promote their raves in connect with X, E, "rolling." You constantly see flyers that use these terms, so that means the promoter knows he can depend on drug users to make his money. Security? HAHAHAHAHA. The security knows that if he doesn't get as many people in the club, the less his paycheck will be. So he lightly taps your shirt, ur pants, and u come into the (and i quote) "crack house" The more people in the club, the more money.

almost done.
I've read that the government is to blame. If u don't like this government, get outta the country. The sooner you leave and take ur drugs with u, the more leniant our government will be on clubs and raves.
Because of drug users, my right to go to a rave is now at stake, when i never even did drugs in the first place.

respond.
(please keep it respectful and intelligent)

The government is the people (or at least should be). If the government is taking this hardline approach to dealing with Raves etc. it is because the PEOPLE are having a problem with drug usage.

The people are the neighbors that complain about loud music. The people are the 'puritans' that are afraid that a mean drugged up raver will 'tempt' their children into doing evil things
the people are you and everybody around you who can vote. Since the majority of the people see a problem in the drug use, this bill will be passed.

If the people, decided that it wasn't a problem, or there was another approach to it, then this bill would be dropped. done.

it is not just the drug users my friend. Yet, it appears that you have found your scapegoat since u are so upset that people want to have a good time.


ps.: how come this is sepecifically targeted at E, not at pot?? Tell me, how come that smoking a joint and listening to hip hop is not percieved as poorly as going to a club/ party/ rave and rolling?

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...ght=EDM+History

I wrote a whole bunch of crap about it, read it if you're interested.

Here's a lil snipit:
"According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, cases which required emergency medical aid involving Ecstasy (nationwide) was 2,850, while there were over 338,000 reported emergency cases involving Marijuana, and other gateway drugs. Also the Bureau of Justice has reported that 73.3% of all high school students have experimented with some form of illegal narcotic, Ecstasy is 5.5% of that total. (Emergency Department Trends, 2001) A survey done by MixMAG, a popular magazine reported that a survey out of 1151 party-goers, only ninety-six were participating in the usage of Ecstasy.--"

The government is somewhat blinded by "vigilante" groups that are against raves. A conference was held with the two senators that are responsible for the creation of this act, and at this conference they were shown a bunch of BS videos basically. Similar to 20/20 videos. Blinded by "a good cause" they are trying to stop drug usuage, but they are going about it all the wrong way.

The fact of the matter is that it is the drug users. However, it is not necessarily all drug users. It is the users who do drugs irresponsibly, and cause media/medical/governmental attention, which results in hasty generalizations, where all drug users become "bad, irresponsible" people.

If the irresponsible drug users were not a factor, then this bill would not even be in question. Don't give me "it is not just the drug users my friend." just a bunch of BS.

quote:

Now i've just barely started into political science so i am using sort of a "guideline" to present my views. ok, let's begin

Yale vs. Stanford polsci departments here we go.

quote:

The people who take the drugs I feel these people are most responsible for the creation of the RAVE act. They take the drugs. They make the desicion to keep drugs in the clubbing and raving scene. As long as there is drugs in the scene, the government will not relent. I've also come to the point that: If RAVE does pass and raves become illegal, why do people like me who don't take drugs have to pay for it? I go to have a nice time, listen to music, talk to DJs, hell, even take a picture with armin. And now because of the people who take drugs, my right to club is now forbidden. People are going to keep taking drugs, The government will keep pushing RAVE. People stop taking drugs, the government will burn the document and bury it in some foreign island...get the picture. RAVE isn't about neighbors complaining of the loud volume, or the high traffic a town recieves when a big name DJ comes around, it's abuot the drugs and that's all they care about. everytime u take a puff of this in a club, or a drop of that in a club, u are adding to the power of RAVE.

Once again you fail to understand one of the basic principles of this game. Trance is music. Music is art. Art is culture. Historically, you can trace the roots of trance and find that this art form has been intrinsically linked to the use of drugs since its very beginning. From a consequential standpoint, it is quite possible that if ecstasy or other drugs of clubland never existed there probably wouldn't be any trance right now. In fact, TA maybe wouldn't exist. Like it or not, DRUGS are part of this culture. You can say the same thing about jazz, ask Louie Armstrong . Imagine 60s music without weed or LSD. It probably wouldn't have happened my friend! Society, arts and culture owe a lot to drugs. The whole concept of rave and its music is based on drug mentality. High-energy, dance all night, peace-love-unity-respect. Do you think that the same state of consciousness could be reached globally just by drinking Coke. Oh man, I hope you never plan to go to Ibiza or the Love Parade, it would be hell for you.

quote:

the dealers Dealers bring the drugs of course. and where do they take their drugs? TO THE CLUB...TO THE RAVE. And who buys these drugs? ravers, clubbers. And what do they do with the drug? They injest it, and add to RAVE. They don't stick a gun in the user's face and say "take this or i will shoot you." Every raver has the choice to add more cases to RAVE or not. Someone tries to deal with me? I say no, but i know he's got someone else in line who would love to add to RAVE. They are always going to be around, unless we do something about it like, ummmm, NOT BUYING THE DRUG. No drugs...no RAVE....just like magic!

Dealers are a neccesary evil in this era of Prohibition. Again I repeat, drugs are not required to enjoy trance. I should know this since I haven't touched e in 3 years. But....ecstasy is part of our sub-culture. It just is! And hey, guess what? It will ALWAYS be part of clubland and the tranceworld, that's an inevitability. Go to Goa and do some research about this. Trance has ALWAYS catered to ecstasy users, that's how this thing started out and you can't just get rid of it. The structure of trance, the synths and riffs, the buildups, the breakdowns, the bass, the acid: elements that were designed to have an effect on people that had an 'altered state of consciousness'. Trance is a drug by itself which stimulates drug users to an even greater consciousness. If you don't like seeing people rolling, I recommend that you avoid clubs and parties completely.

quote:

the promoters There is no chance in hell that promoters are not going to get any beef. I live in San Diego and when i go the record store, i often see flyers for raves around the socal area. Ok, what's wrong with setting up an event? Nothing of course, except that 99% of these flyers promote their raves in connect with X, E, "rolling." You constantly see flyers that use these terms, so that means the promoter knows he can depend on drug users to make his money. Security? HAHAHAHAHA. The security knows that if he doesn't get as many people in the club, the less his paycheck will be. So he lightly taps your shirt, ur pants, and u come into the (and i quote) "crack house" The more people in the club, the more money.

Most promoters are just capitalist bastards, all they care is about making money. We agree on that one. But that's just the way our economy works, and I think it's alright. However, I think it would be wise for the government to legislate for security standards. The government should make sure that the rights of clubbers are protected and their civil rights not be trampled (like the RAVE Act intends to do). As Drittz said, the security of OTHERS should be protected by targeting DUIs, instead of targeting everyone at the same time. The government should not be paternalistic, it should let us do what we want with our health and body as long as we don't hurt others. Period.

quote:

I've read that the government is to blame. If u don't like this government, get outta the country. The sooner you leave and take ur drugs with u, the more leniant our government will be on clubs and raves.

Already did and I don't regret it at all. In fact, I'm having the time of my life. I love Holland, a true land of the free. Peace

quote:

"Rave parties are not going to be part of our community and are not going to be tolerated." (Lt. Robert Purdy, Racine Police). Nov. 5th 2002, police raided a downtown concert in Wisconsin, and gave all 441 participants of the �techno room� a $968.00 ticket for being �patrons of a disorderly house�. Out of all the 441 �ravers� only three were found to have illegal substances. Outraged I sit here typing this out, it is ludicrous, it is tyranny, and it is repression of a culture. Many other cases that are similar to this exist, and it is unfortunate that the even the law cannot differentiate between drugs and music. Blinded by the stereotypes, and �what you see on T.V. must be true� attitude, EDM will continue to be suppressed, and will dive back into the underground where it originated from. You can see that this is not the case. Three people had illegal narcotics (out of 441 people!), which is hardly a majority.

very interesting about the ratio of clean and dirty out of 441 people. I honestly am surprised there wasn't more than 100! I'm sure this ruined the night for many people, the many that didn't do drugs at all

Wow, great example you posted. Lt. Robert Purdy, a true ignorant redneck saying that rave parties are not going to be tolerated. Is that your hero? This is just an example of what's wrong with the War on Drugs and the targeting of rave culture.

quote:

The government should not be paternalistic, it should let us do what we want with our health and body as long as we don't hurt others. Period.

Responsibility is the eternal companion of Rights.
People view it as a "right" to injest wutever the heck they want, however, obviously too many have failed to take the appropriate responsibility resulting in trauma to not only themselves but the people around them. Which sucks for the other more aware, responsible users who care more. If you want somebody to blame, blame the people who don't have the wisdom to be responsible.

??? i don't understand what that meant.

by the way, doesn't the majority of the world's population want to leave their homes because drugs are so rampant in their neighborhood. People want to enter neighborhoods where sex (strip clubs, adult video outlets), violence (gangs, guns) and drugs (u know) are far away from them and their family

quote:

Originally posted by djnaeblis Responsibility is the eternal companion of Rights. People view it as a "right" to injest wutever the heck they want, however, obviously too many have failed to take the appropriate responsibility resulting in trauma to not only themselves but the people around them. Which sucks for the other more aware, responsible users who care more. If you want somebody to blame, blame the people who don't have the wisdom to be responsible.

Responsibility is essential for the survival of society, but I want to live in a government that trusts my judgement in choosing to be responsible when it comes to my own body and health. I don't like to be told what I can or can't do to myself when these actions will only potentially hurt me and not others.

omigod...who really cares

Rave act = more cancelled club/rave events

So everyone who is a fan of electronic music should care.

CARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by DaveSaenz Rave act = more cancelled club/rave events So everyone who is a fan of electronic music should care. CARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! actually....i go to plenty club events. maybe a lot of the underground shit is banned, but if you are a true lover of the music- then there are def a lot of trance clubs in the U.S. unless you're in like, alaska or something. i do care, but not enough to bitch and whine about it on this thread like ya'll!!!!

why did my post come out weird...well anyway, that last little paragraph was what i said.

quote:

Originally posted by drizzt81 ps.: how come this is sepecifically targeted at E, not at pot?? Tell me, how come that smoking a joint and listening to hip hop is not percieved as poorly as going to a club/ party/ rave and rolling?

bwhahahaha (sorry man im not laughing at you) but can you imagine them trying to do that... i bet the government wants to so bad but the second they try shutting down hip hop clubs and making them illegal there is going to be huge racial riots and protests guaranteed... it would eb the worst move a politician could make!!!

It's not only "underground" shit that is getting the blame.....

I know you care. I just misunderstood you.
And I hope that Glow never dies so I can visit it sometime.

NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER RAYMOND W. KELLY AND SPECIAL NARCOTICS PROSECUTOR BRIDGET G. BRENNAN ANNOUNCE CLOSURE OF TWO NIGHTCLUBS IN MANHATTAN ON CHARGES OF ONGOING ILLEGAL "DESIGNER" DRUG ACTIVITIES
>
New York City Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly and Special Narcotics Prosecutor Bridget G. Brennan today announced the closure of two large nightclubs in Manhattan on charges of ongoing illegal drug activities. The Sound Factory, at 616-620 West 46th Street, and Exit, at 610 West 56th Street, were closed on Friday, February 7, by order of the New York State Supreme Court. These closing orders are subject to modification by the court.
>
> "The New York City Police Department is combatting the illegal narcotics trade everywhere in our city � not only in the streets, but also in nightclubs," said Commissioner Kelly. "Our detectives did a terrific job throughout this investigation. Thanks to their hard work, we are sending a clear message to nightclub owners: If you allow illegal drugs to saturate your business and endanger your patrons, we'll shut you down."
>
> Special Narcotics Prosecutor Brennan said: "Most of those we are prosecuting are college students who seemed to have no preciation of the legal consequences to themselves or the harm that their distribution of the drugs brought to their customers. The special treatment they received in the exclusive areas of the clubs enhanced their sense that they could conduct criminal business with impunity."
>
> Both nightclubs have been the scene of numerous narcotics crimes, usually involving illegal "designer" drugs, such as Ecstasy (methylenedioxy methamphetamine or MDMA) and Special K (ketamine). In Exit, undercover detectives not only purchased drugs easily, they also observed many club patrons using them in the open. In other incidents, detectives purchased benign substances that the sellers claimed were illegal drugs, a common ploy used by narcotics dealers to defraud naive drug buyers.
>
> The nightclub was previously the subject of a nuisance abatement action, in September 2000. After extensive negotiations with the club owners at that time, Exit was allowed to operate after club management agreed to institute numerous anti-drug policies, including hiring an independent private-sector inspector general, or IPSIG, to monitor and report on club activities. The IPSIG agreement covered a nine-month period, from October 2001 to June 2002.
>
> At the Sound Factory, the larger nightclub with a capacity of more than 1,400 people, undercover detectives purchased Ecstasy, Special K, methamphetamine, cocaine and marijuana. During the investigation, drug use by patrons was clearly in the open. In fact, on Jan. 26, 2003, a 19-year-old woman overdosed and was removed from the club in an unconscious state. The Sound Factory was also temporarily closed by
nuisance abatement order on April 30, 1999.
>
> This investigation was initiated by the Narcotics Division of the New York City Police Department and the investigation was assisted
> by the office of the Special Narcotics prosecutor and the NYPD's Civil Enforcement Unit. The Civil Enforcement Unit secured nuisance abatement closing orders against 649 locations across the city in 2002, for charges including illegal narcotics, gambling, ostitution, auto crime, stolen property, alcohol beverage control law, and trademark infringement offenses.
>
> Eleven defendants are being prosecuted for drug sales inside the clubs by the Office of the Special Narcotics Prosecutor.

Wasn't Buzz in DC shut down for drug-related probs too??

quote:

Originally posted by mongeone bwhahahaha (sorry man im not laughing at you) but can you imagine them trying to do that... i bet the government wants to so bad but the second they try shutting down hip hop clubs and making them illegal there is going to be huge racial riots and protests guaranteed... it would eb the worst move a politician could make!!!

I didn't think of the racial factor, but I'm sure there is something to that.

Wouldn't u think it would be better for clubs to not 'shut' but accept that people will take drugs and provide adequate safety measures for this??

This has happened in many clubs across the world, just because the USA use this approach doesn't mean its right.

The USA's government is too hasty with alot of issues it would seem

Closing clubs is just going to cause more bother, instread of shutting them completely, make it a safer environment and enforce full searches.

DJ Slain, I'm afraid to say I believe you're acting rather childish, making out that all drug users are bad.

Look, the fact of the matter is, unless you can justify the laws prohibiting drug use, you really have no business criticizing people for refusing to conform to those laws.

I have yet to see anyone make a serious effort to justify those laws, but if you'd like to attempt to do so, I'd be happy to hear what you have to say. Otherwise, I really don't see how you can claim to have a point.

Closing down clubs is a too harsh measure, but I do agree with the idea that the drug usage should be banned. The only thing is that it shouldn't be done by closing down the clubs, but by actively persuing the dealers. If you see a dealer in a club and close the club down because of him, he's gonna go somewhere else. Drugs are usually influencing people in a negative way, and many individuals aren't intelligent enough to look far ahead enough to see where drug use is leading them. Another problem with drugs is that they are not only a problem to the individual who is using them, but they are a problem to the community as well. You can say you don't want to wear a seatbelt because it's your life you're risking, but when you crash and suffer injuries far worse than you would if you'd have worn a seat belt, when you get in the hospital, you do expect that you will be taken care of nevertheless.

quote:

Originally posted by djnaeblis http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...ght=EDM+History I wrote a whole bunch of crap about it, read it if you're interested. Here's a lil snipit: "According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, cases which required emergency medical aid involving Ecstasy (nationwide) was 2,850, while there were over 338,000 reported emergency cases involving Marijuana, and other gateway drugs. Also the Bureau of Justice has reported that 73.3% of all high school students have experimented with some form of illegal narcotic, Ecstasy is 5.5% of that total. (Emergency Department Trends, 2001) A survey done by MixMAG, a popular magazine reported that a survey out of 1151 party-goers, only ninety-six were participating in the usage of Ecstasy.--" ...

'Bureau of Justice Stats'?!? maybe they are a little biased? hmm?

but i fail to understand how a drug like MJ with little if no addictive properties, and really no ability to kill you, much less cause 'emergency cases' can be included in a figure like that.

its a scare tactic. they put MJ first, and then group 'other gateway drugs' in right after that.

what does that mean?

what are the 'other' gateway drugs?

what is a gateway drug? and why?

see, overall this isnt a matter of health. that means fuck all to the US govt. they want arrests and busts, so they can call it crime and make money from fines, etc. 'gateway' drugs wouldnt be gateway if they didnt tell 6 yr olds that MJ is as bad as heroin. cause then, when that kid tokes up at 17 or whatever, he gets it into his head that 'hey, this isnt so bad, why not try all those other drugs'.

thats terrible, but what is worse is that the govt is CREATING crime by making these things illegal. and since these drugs are unregulated, they are inherently more unsafe, and thusly - more 'emergency situations'.

any time MJ is noted in an arrest for whatever reason, usually that person has been drinking alchol as well, so the stats are completely skewed for a 'legal drug'.

i think Pio is right, and i could continue, but i think i will stop.

basically you can blame whoever you want. but i think the 'clubbers and ravers' who LARGELY support this music culture/industry shouldnt get a stricter eye that a bunch of wealthy, white, senior citizen, politicians that know nothing about what goes on in said events|

quote:

Originally posted by biznology ...bunch of wealthy, white, senior citizen, politicians that know nothing about what goes on in said events...|

ok, what does go on in these events? i think the government has been pretty accurate about what goes on in the raves.

quote:

Originally posted by djSlain ok, what does go on in these events? i think the government has been pretty accurate about what goes on in the raves.

well then, if they know *exactly* what happens...why such vague legislation?

if they know exactly who is selling, who is doing, and who is in possession, why not make arrests? why alter 'crack-house' legislation to conform to music events? i dont consider people addicted to a highly addictive, cheap drug going somewhere to get their hit the same as going to a party...do you?

quote:

Originally posted by trancEyes22 actually....i go to plenty club events. maybe a lot of the underground shit is banned, but if you are a true lover of the music- then there are def a lot of trance clubs in the U.S. unless you're in like, alaska or something. i do care, but not enough to bitch and whine about it on this thread like ya'll!!!!

Name a single Trance club in Pennsylvania (US-PA), New Jersey (US-NJ), or Delaware (US-DE). I mean a club that plays NOTHING BUT Trance.

quote:

Originally posted by ali92 Name a single Trance club in Pennsylvania (US-PA), New Jersey (US-NJ), or Delaware (US-DE). I mean a club that plays NOTHING BUT Trance.

actually, the trance clubs that i go to now usually have an upstairs room where they play rap. so if thats the case:

PA: envy, egypt, shampoo, chrome
DE: theres nothing even in that state to begin with
NJ: never been there but im sure there is

also, name one in each state that have been closed down....btw, why does everyone in this thread have a stick up their ass?!

quote:

Originally posted by trancEyes22 actually, the trance clubs that i go to now usually have an upstairs room where they play rap. so if thats the case: PA: envy, egypt, shampoo, chrome DE: theres nothing even in that state to begin with NJ: never been there but im sure there is also, name one in each state that have been closed down....btw, why does everyone in this thread have a stick up their ass?!

I should've rephrased that to "top-notch epic/uplifting/melodic Trance" because "Trance" can also be the cheesy type too. I heard of 3 of those clubs (Egypt: Philadelphia PA, Columbus Blvd. & Spring Garden Street, Shampoo: Philadelphia PA, Between 7th and 8th Streets on Wood Street, Chrome: Philadelphia PA, around the 900-block of Columbus Blvd.). I never knew that these play NOTHING BUT Trance. If the Egypt, Chrome, and Shampoo clubs that you're talking about are the ones I mentioned, you're wrong about the playing NOTHING BUT Trance. "Q102.1 FM" broadcasts sets by a DJ named Richie RICH and sometimes Louie DEVITO (the person who made the Various Artists album "N.Y.C. Underground Party: Vol. 3" (I have it and I don't like it anymore due to the amount of cheese material that's on it)) and I can assure you that what I hear is <5% cheesy Trance material and the rest isn't even Trance.

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