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-- mixing over 0db and distortion

mixing over 0db and distortion

i am one of those people who likes to play well into the red. on my vestax PCV 275, the red lights start at +1, and there are 4 of them going up to +8 i find i CAN play at 0db with it just barely peaking at +1, but it just doesn't sound good or punchy if you know what i mean. turning up the amp helps, but still the dynamic range of the sound seems to suffer, it all seems muted, even though it's loud enough to hurt my ears.

instead i now play at about +6 to +8 on the VUs. I keep it in the red most of the time, and use the +8 light as sort of a clip meter, if i see it getting that high, then i turn it down a bit to keep that light from never lighting up.

I find this gives me much better results and doesn't result in any noticeable distortion. The music sounds tighter and clearer, with better defined highs and lows. I suppose this is called "headroom" on a mixer, i notice mine doesn't actually start to noticeably distort until i'm well over the +8db light. I know that some consumer electronics actually have a -6 db cut on them, to prevent people from blowing their amps, maybe this is the same thing?

anyway, do you guys play into the red, and do you find it sounds better?

what are you doing to make your volume louder?

are you turning the master volume up, or turning up the gains?

the tracks might sound a little dull if you have the gains too low, because you're not letting enough sound pass through...however don't crank the gains all the way up or you may get the reverse effect

but i don't see any harm in what you're doing though, its probably just because your home setup isn't top notch equipment like they have at clubs (just like mine isn't...i use my dads old amp from the 15th century ) so you compensate by going over 0db

just remember not to do that at a club or else it'll sound like SHIT!
and don't do it when you're recording

Indeed headroom means the amount of dB's left above 0 dB before the sound starts to distort bad. Bad mixers will have little headroom, good mixers have lots of it (to give an example, my Xone has more than 20 dB).

But the mixer is designed to have it's best specs at an average level of 0dB (all the specs given by the manufacturer are at 0dB, and measured at the best possible conditions, that's marketing...).
Even if you have lots of headroom it's recommended to stick around 0 dB.
The reason you find it punchier is because there is actually something happening when you drive the mixer in the red constantly (remember those specs differ from the 0 dB ones). What happens depends on how the mixer was build, on some it can mean a slight saturation (so not an awful distortion, but more distortion you can feel instead of hear), on some a slight compression of the dynamics (easiest way to test this is to try to bang in two tunes together with full bass. When both tunes are playing at roughly 0 dB, you'll notice the bass increase (or decrease if you happen to have phasing) a lot. Now do it when driving the mixer in the red, and you won't notice it as much, because there IS some compression, even if it's minimal).

As I study for sound engineer, I'm particularly paying attention to this (we learn to keep it as clean as possible). So personally I keep around 0 dB (ok I admit, my Xone beats your Vestax any day in the sound quality and punchiness, but even then). But I must say that even when I first started to dj, I was terribly annoyed when I saw the dj spinning into the red in the clubs (the worst I ever saw was dj rob, the dutch hardcore dj, he was driving a Rodec MX180 mkII (and that one has lots of headroom too) so much in the red that the vumeters didn't even move anymore!).
Seriously, you do what you want with your stuff, as long as it does sound good for you. But would you happen to spin in a club when I was there and driving the mixer in the red, you can be sure I would give you a remark/slap you/throw you out of the booth (choose whatever fits)!

quote:

Originally posted by Kid Lax ...just remember not to do that at a club or else it'll sound like SHIT! and don't do it when you're recording

excellent point.
its quite funny to watch some people you follow looking bemused that the sound level(and quality) has gone up when you turn the gains down!

quote:

Originally posted by Kid Lax what are you doing to make your volume louder? are you turning the master volume up, or turning up the gains?

well, what i do is turn the gains up so that the CUE meter is bouncing one light short of +8db. on the PCV275, the cue meter is independant of the master volume, so this is the best way to do it. depending on the track, it's between 11 and 3 oclock or so.

if the master is at 12 o clock, then the master leds will match the cue ones.

quote:

Originally posted by Kid Lax but i don't see any harm in what you're doing though, its probably just because your home setup isn't top notch equipment like they have at clubs (just like mine isn't...i use my dads old amp from the 15th century ) so you compensate by going over 0db

yeah, my equipment is pretty good, but definitely not like pro audio equipment, i have kenwood amp and speakers, enough to annoy my neighbours, but i'm sure it's nothing like having a couple Crown CE1000s and some cerwin vega dual 15"s like in a club.

quote:

Originally posted by Kid Lax just remember not to do that at a club or else it'll sound like SHIT!

I've done it with a "small club" setup, a few yamaha monitors, a yamaha 1000watt amp, and two Mackies and a sub for the FOH. I didn't really hear it distoring at all, sounded good until i lit up that top light, which is a bit sooner than it distorts at home.

quote:

Originally posted by Kid Lax and don't do it when you're recording

actually, interestingly enough, when i record like this, it works perfectly. When i record keeping it at 0db or just over, then my recording is on average 3 to 6 db below 0 when i look at in soundforge, so i have to normalize it. maybe my vestax has the standard -6db drop?

I'd love to have an A&H or Rane or something, for now my vestax will do though.

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Thy The reason you find it punchier is because there is actually something happening when you drive the mixer in the red constantly (remember those specs differ from the 0 dB ones). What happens depends on how the mixer was build, on some it can mean a slight saturation (so not an awful distortion, but more distortion you can feel instead of hear), on some a slight compression of the dynamics (easiest way to test this is to try to bang in two tunes together with full bass. When both tunes are playing at roughly 0 dB, you'll notice the bass increase (or decrease if you happen to have phasing) a lot. Now do it when driving the mixer in the red, and you won't notice it as much, because there IS some compression, even if it's minimal).

Yeah, i think mine must be the latter. I find if i have it a little bit in the red, the bass doubling or cancelling effect due to phasing is less.

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Thy the worst I ever saw was dj rob, the dutch hardcore dj, he was driving a Rodec MX180 mkII (and that one has lots of headroom too) so much in the red that the vumeters didn't even move anymore!). Seriously, you do what you want with your stuff, as long as it does sound good for you.

yeah, i would never have it that high, it sound like shit. I avoid letting that top light go on, so i can see where my signal is peaking at.

quote:

actually, interestingly enough, when i record like this, it works perfectly. When i record keeping it at 0db or just over, then my recording is on average 3 to 6 db below 0 when i look at in soundforge, so i have to normalize it. maybe my vestax has the standard -6db drop?

Nah that's just how you set your recording levels in your recording program. You can perfectly make your mixer distort (driving your mixer in the red like mad) and still have your soundforge record at -10 dB. You set the recording levels optimally for your style of mixing, that's all.

In the broadcast world things are different. Lemme explain. Different countries have different references. Here in belgium, 0 VU (on an old needle VU meter) is equal to +4 dBu (the pro audio reference). Such a VU meter reacts like a human hear (it has an ascending time of about 360 ms). Practically it means that if you have a VERY short pop or sth, that meter won't budge much.
You have meters that react much faster, and those are called PPM meters. Analog PPM's react slower than digital ones, plus they incorporate a margin when using the digital one (as you mean, going over 0 dB in digital is distortion guaranteed). Usually a LED "Vu meter" on a mixer is an analog PPM meter (so not really a VU meter).

Now how do they set levels (mostly with mixed systems, VU and PPM's together)? With a pure 1 kHz sinus tone (you might heard that if you have the test signal on a TV station, that puuuuuuuuut tone).
The tone has a constant volume, which they'll set at 0 VU. Depending on the standard, PPM's will be adjusted accordingly (here in Belgium, the standard is 0 dB VU=-9 dB analog PPM=-18 dB digital PPM). And this isn't changed after calibration!

The rule is most of the time that neither the analog or digital PPM may cross the 0 dB. The reference is still that 0 dB average, and this on the loudest parts of the programme. So you see, would you directly put tap your mixers output on a radio program directly to the broadcast system, driving your mixer in the red will be a big no no.

Of course this is a worst case scenario. In pro companies, they'll never directly connect the source to the final broadcast stage. Eventually they'll either have a broadcast mixer or dynamics processor still keep the signal in range.

But it shows you there are different ways to set recording levels. I must admit I took over the habits of school when setting the recording levels. When I connect my mixer to my comp, I run a 1kHz through it, and adjust it so -9 dB on my mixer = -18 dB on my recording program's meter (and if I happen to use an old reel taperecorder (it happens!) it'll be at 0 VU). This insures me that I'll be having the optimum sound specs when mixing (because I stay at 0 dB at loudest parts...) in the recording, that will result in the cleanest possible sound I can get with minimal distortion.

I know, I'm a freak, blame school.

Get a better mixer.......DJM-600 will do the job for ya

lmao @ DJ Thy's expert input followed by "Get a better mixer.......DJM-600 will do the job for ya"

yeah, somehow i think i should listen to thy..

john, vestax mixers LIE, their +8db is about +2 or summat lol, coz i know when i set the master volume on my pioneer now to 0db it is far louder than vestax was on 0db, and i always have my stereo set on -20Db which is LOUD i always used to record my mixes with my vestax using the all the red up to +8db so i didnt have to limit the channel faders to 8 lol, but keeping the line in on my computer right down so that the total gain going in to the computer was around 70%, 80% at ultimate peaks (bass eq up on crashes in breaks etc). And in clubs all mixers have a master volume (clubs that i've seen anyways) so that u won't have to worry about it there

yeah, that's what i thought, it has a 6db cut, like lots of consumer electronics.

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