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-- Americans arent that stupid...

Americans arent that stupid...

Ill have to say, lately ive been hearing a lot more opposition to the Bush Administration. For those of you whose main perspective on America is our COMPLETELY-SHITTY-ASS-MEDIA, i can assure you that much of the country doesnt feel any desire to fight for this purpose. Infact, many dont even care about weapons inspections, although that number is far smaller. Most of what you hear comes from America's "Ignorant and Arrogant" class... buuuuut, theres also the "Ignorant, but cares class" -- many of us that dont know because we are limited by propaganda and media coverage, but still want to do whats best. Ive participated in several peace rallies recently in the Seattle area here, and while im not really into protesting, i found a rather impressing amount of passion in many of the peoples voices. People actually care here, even though we still support the major corporations that fuck the world over, we want to do what we can. Americans are at a point where it is very difficult to survive if you do not support the cruelty of our governmnet some how. Our whole society and economy is so dependent on the international and corporate community that our citizens are left feeling overwhelmed, but happy with their nice cars and fancy computers... Ive thought about getting the Fuck out of here, moving somewhere else (not Canada though), but it seems much more appropriate to fight for honesty here, cause the truth is most of these governments are pretty fuckin scary...

anyways, i think its important that people from our countries continue to communicate, especially because some people can become isolated like us Americans.

America will probably go down in history as the most desperate attempt for perfection in a society, but due to its lack of listening (to the earth, to other cultures and to its own) will be seen as the most saddening human endeavour... yesterday i was reading a poem by my favorite spiritual father, Thomas Merton, about the Atomic Bomb. The poem is called "Original Child Bomb".. He points out that man has been trying to create this for so long and when the Americans finally made it they couldnt resist using it and thus making themselves the most powerful country in the world by sending this planet on an insane downward spiral of fear. No every day people everywhere on the planet know that everything can end within several hours... The U.S. is the only country to have used such a ridiculous instrument on other humans...

Re: Americans arent that stupid...

quote:

Originally posted by trancedfarmer America will probably go down in history as the most desperate attempt for perfection in a society, but due to its lack of listening (to the earth, to other cultures and to its own) will be seen as the most saddening human endeavour... yesterday i was reading a poem by my favorite spiritual father, Thomas Merton, about the Atomic Bomb. The poem is called "Original Child Bomb".. He points out that man has been trying to create this for so long and when the Americans finally made it they couldnt resist using it and thus making themselves the most powerful country in the world by sending this planet on an insane downward spiral of fear. No every day people everywhere on the planet know that everything can end within several hours... The U.S. is the only country to have used such a ridiculous instrument on other humans...

Uh oh ... don't even get me started on that topic. Let's just say that you should read up on the concept of Total War and hit the history books before bringing this up. But if anybody would like to discuss start a new thread cuz I'll just ramble on about it!

shoot.

our society feasts of the worlds poor.. consumes much of the worlds food and goods.. we are a country full of middle men... and we protect our position by way of supression..

anyways, that is a little of the main subject... do you not agree that many people in this country are beginning to understand and agree with the rest of the world... that many are coming out against this war.

I was referring to the very last part, the part with the poem. Anyway, yea I think the US and Europe profit off of partnerships with poorer countries but what would you suggest we do? Withdraw all our business from these countries? They would be significantly worse off. I don't think our society "suppresses" other countries and try to keep them poor, it would be mutually beneficial for everybody if these countries developed into major trading partners. However, who do you suggest pays for the massive development of these poor countries? Typically they are so fraught with corruption that any influx of aid is squandered by the few, and simply put, with the state of the world economy don't expect something like that any time soon.

quote:

Originally posted by trancedfarmer do you not agree that many people in this country are beginning to understand and agree with the rest of the world... that many are coming out against this war.

eh not really....just the ones that are against the ware are making themselves heard, whereas the proponents keep quiet to avoid attention and ridicule

>JM<

america is the best right now....

America may not the be the ultimate light of perfection in a society, but they are the best way to live for a person right now.

Also the good comes with the bad. learn to accept it.


most of america is which way you say? I read anti-war... but I say, lets see when sept.11 x 2 comes b/c you american's failed to act from the first time you were given a lesson. There is a problem. You didn't create it, but you know what, when your full of the worlds money, and the worlds best of most material things, there are gonna be those that oppose you... and its gonna be your job to make sure you stay on top, secure and unable to be penetrated by petty terrorists who want to destroy what you have because it stops them from gaining their dictatorship powers, or because of their errors in interpriting their religious beliefs!!!!

Shlomo Eliyahu Baron

quote:

Originally posted by JM eh not really....just the ones that are against the ware are making themselves heard, whereas the proponents keep quiet to avoid attention and ridicule >JM<

proponents are the one's being heard. there is hardly any antiwar sentiment being heard in washington among the bigwigs that run this country. people are proposing boycotts on france and german goods because they are against america.
people are changing the name of "french fries" to "freedom fries" (absolutly ridiculous). Even hollywood stars are being ridiculed for being antiwar.

quote:

Originally posted by montie proponents are the one's being heard. there is hardly any antiwar sentiment being heard in washington among the bigwigs that run this country. people are proposing boycotts on france and german goods because they are against america. people are changing the name of "french fries" to "freedom fries" (absolutly ridiculous). Even hollywood stars are being ridiculed for being antiwar.

Hardly the case ... coming from Washington I would say the anti-war sentiment has a significantly louder voice.

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Originally posted by occrider Hardly the case ... coming from Washington I would say the anti-war sentiment has a significantly louder voice.

In the political arena? who in washington is opposing Bush?

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Originally posted by montie In the political arena? who in washington is opposing Bush?

Exactly, only fringe politicians like Howard Dean, Dennis Kucinich, Al Sharpton and Carol Mosley-Braun. However, even hawkish democrats like Libermann, Kerry and Gephardt have begun to take indirect swipes at Bush foreign policy and would no doubt jump ship if any aspect of Iraq goes awry.

quote:

Originally posted by montie In the political arena? who in washington is opposing Bush?

Ahh ok politically. I thought you meant locally. Yes I'm rather surprised at how united congress is with regards to this issue. Especially since they typically kiss the ass of constituents.

i think it would be refreshing if some of you read the book "What's So Great About America" by Dinesh D'Souza
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=books&n=507846

Ok I haven't read the book but I read the cover, flap, back etc. My question is ... does it seem odd to anybody that immigrants to America in general are far more patriotic than Americans born and raised? I'm not talking about the stupid Iraq issue but American patriotism in general. Like at recent times, whenever I go to a 4th of July parade or something it almost seems like minorities and immigrants alike outnumber the white people. Also most critics of the United States are predominantly white, born and raised Americans. At least that's my perspective ... Are we perhaps spoiled or unlearned? Sometimes I wonder why it is that protestors (again I'm generalizing beyond Iraq) in general are typically white, college, under age 30, students. Sure you can say that college students in general are more openminded and worldly than the rest of the population but if you think about it, those less openminded and less worldly 50 year olds were the activists from the 70's!!! You would think that THEY of all people would be the first to protest an injustice. Could it be that as 20 year olds we still adhere to idealistic beliefs that don't really apply to the world in which we live in? Yes we are intelligent but are we really WISE?

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Ok I haven't read the book but I read the cover, flap, back etc. My question is ... does it seem odd to anybody that immigrants to America in general are far more patriotic than Americans born and raised? I'm not talking about the stupid Iraq issue but American patriotism in general. Like at recent times, whenever I go to a 4th of July parade or something it almost seems like minorities and immigrants alike outnumber the white people. Also most critics of the United States are predominantly white, born and raised Americans. At least that's my perspective ... Are we perhaps spoiled or unlearned? Sometimes I wonder why it is that protestors (again I'm generalizing beyond Iraq) in general are typically white, college, under age 30, students. Sure you can say that college students in general are more openminded and worldly than the rest of the population but if you think about it, those less openminded and less worldly 50 year olds were the activists from the 70's!!! You would think that THEY of all people would be the first to protest an injustice. Could it be that as 20 year olds we still adhere to idealistic beliefs that don't really apply to the world in which we live in? Yes we are intelligent but are we really WISE?

Well most immigrants come to america thinking that this is the place of opportunity and where they can make it big. most of them are escaping from oppression or poverty and thus they think if they come here they are coming to a wonderful place where they will be "free." America has always been thought of the place where one can come for freedom. Thus it makes sense that they are more patriotic.
As to the point about the biggest protesters being white college 20 year olds I think there are a couple of points which work together to explain this.
Younger people tend to be more rebellious. Most children when they reach a certain age start to rebel in different ways against their parents and other authority figures in their life, so thus it's natural for them to start to rebel against the government if they have issues which jump out at them and they disagree with.
Also people in college tend to be more educated and thus more intelligent (sorry if i sound a little smug here). Thus they tend to see some of the errors or problems in our system of government (the drug war is one popular issue) and thus rebel or protest against it.
Also on the spoiled issue, i do partly agree, white college boys and girls tend to have grown up rather if not extremely wealthy, thus a large majority of them are spoiled and like to protest because its either fun or their "whiney" and whatever.
I think alot of these reasons along with other reasons that I fail to recognize, play together to explain why white college kids are more rebellious or tend to protest more or are less patriotic than most minorities and immigrants.
As to whether white college kids are wiser than 50 year olds. no. wisdom comes with experience. a 50 year old has more experience than a college 20 year old kid. that doesn't necesarily mean that the 50 year old is right though. You also have to consider that 50 year olds tend to be more conservative thus may have blindly grab hold of an issue and stick with it not necesarily because they know it is logicaly right, but because they are used to it and don't know anything else.
Anyway, it all balances out in the end. sometimes the old peeps are more in the right and the youngin's are just being spoiled and rebellouis and sometimes the old peeps are close minded and ignorant and the youngin's are seeing things more clearly and logicly and are more in the right.
all depends on the individual.
wow that was alot of rambling.
i need to stop coming to these forums and stick to the DJ and chill out area.

quote:

Originally posted by montie Well most immigrants come to america thinking that this is the place of opportunity and where they can make it big. most of them are escaping from oppression or poverty and thus they think if they come here they are coming to a wonderful place where they will be "free." America has always been thought of the place where one can come for freedom. Thus it makes sense that they are more patriotic. As to the point about the biggest protesters being white college 20 year olds I think there are a couple of points which work together to explain this. Younger people tend to be more rebellious. Most children when they reach a certain age start to rebel in different ways against their parents and other authority figures in their life, so thus it's natural for them to start to rebel against the government if they have issues which jump out at them and they disagree with. Also people in college tend to be more educated and thus more intelligent (sorry if i sound a little smug here). Thus they tend to see some of the errors or problems in our system of government (the drug war is one popular issue) and thus rebel or protest against it. Also on the spoiled issue, i do partly agree, white college boys and girls tend to have grown up rather if not extremely wealthy, thus a large majority of them are spoiled and like to protest because its either fun or their "whiney" and whatever. I think alot of these reasons along with other reasons that I fail to recognize, play together to explain why white college kids are more rebellious or tend to protest more or are less patriotic than most minorities and immigrants. As to whether white college kids are wiser than 50 year olds. no. wisdom comes with experience. a 50 year old has more experience than a college 20 year old kid. that doesn't necesarily mean that the 50 year old is right though. You also have to consider that 50 year olds tend to be more conservative thus may have blindly grab hold of an issue and stick with it not necesarily because they know it is logicaly right, but because they are used to it and don't know anything else. Anyway, it all balances out in the end. sometimes the old peeps are more in the right and the youngin's are just being spoiled and rebellouis and sometimes the old peeps are close minded and ignorant and the youngin's are seeing things more clearly and logicly and are more in the right. all depends on the individual. wow that was alot of rambling. i need to stop coming to these forums and stick to the DJ and chill out area.

i know some of these issues have become over discussed, but it still feels like a good idea to communicate, although im mainly getting feedback from americans...

Montie:

I would agree with most of your arguments except for the part about people in college being more intelligent and educated. So once we leave college do we start becoming more stupid and narrowminded? There should be just as many intelligent/educated people outside of college as there are in college, actually more! For each age bracket there's going to be a percentage of the population that went to college. When you add up the number of college attendees over each age bracket that's going to far outweigh the number of people currentely in college. Thus the general population should be equally intelligent enough to see the errors of our government as college students.

Also, I'm wondering why you put free in quotes. Do you think that we really aren't "free"? Should we learn something from these immigrants that come to America or Europe and realize that the countries that we live in really are not as bad as we sometimes make them out to be?

perhaps he ment free in the sense of total freedome that includes mental, emotional, physical(sexual) ect. If we got into a dicusion on the influence that governments have both directly and indirectly i think you would see that when it all ads up u amount to nothing more than a cow in may respects. SO we are only free in the sense that we have liberty and the balance of power apears to favor both sides of the spectrum.

Re: Americans arent that stupid...

quote:

Originally posted by trancedfarmer Ill have to say, lately ive been hearing a lot more opposition to the Bush Administration. For those of you whose main perspective on America is our COMPLETELY-SHITTY-ASS-MEDIA, i can assure you that much of the country doesnt feel any desire to fight for this purpose. Infact, many dont even care about weapons inspections, although that number is far smaller.

some information I gathered from our shitty ass media here in the United States.

- A projected $300 billion deficit (Thank you George Bush, responcible fiscal policy at work)

- War costs estimated at $95 - 400 billion (Thats an awful lot of money to spend for oil, or to remove WMD for that matter..., note the Gulf War costed about $30 billion and most was paid for by US Allies, which this war will not be) The $95 - 400 billion does not include rebuilding costs for Iraq, if we have any money left, $30 billion was already spent just for staging grounds in Turkey.

- War results could trigger a wave of terrorism vs. the US. (Maybe George Bush could learn the concept of retaliation by invading Iraq) Maybe the US public could learn not to elect Republicans through George Bush's results.

- And get this, after massive deficits & war talk expenditures, what the hell do I keep hearing from the president. More, get this, more DAMN TAX CUTS. This guys economic results are like a bad Enron episode. If he doesn't bankrupt our country through tax cuts, it will be through war. Lovely, I want my country back now Benidict Arnold. Heck Benidict Arnold would probably yeild better results than this.

- Finally, even Alan Greenspan has doubts about continued tax cuts, citing higher gas prices as the reason for reduced consumer spending. Now Bush is threatening to remove Greenspan... the only intelligent economic advisor/chairman left, I assure you.

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Originally posted by occrider Montie: I would agree with most of your arguments except for the part about people in college being more intelligent and educated. So once we leave college do we start becoming more stupid and narrowminded? There should be just as many intelligent/educated people outside of college as there are in college, actually more! For each age bracket there's going to be a percentage of the population that went to college. When you add up the number of college attendees over each age bracket that's going to far outweigh the number of people currentely in college. Thus the general population should be equally intelligent enough to see the errors of our government as college students.

I didn't mean that people after they left college became less intelligent. I was trying to say those who are in college and college educated AS A WHOLE (not everyone) tend to be more intelligent and educated than those who did not go to college or who grew up in a place where they had limited opportunity and thus haven't been exposed to as much of the world.
I will agree that there are some people who don't go to college that are more intelligent or more educated in some way than people who did. I'm talking on the average or whole here.
As to my putting free in quotations.
Many of the people who come to america looking for freedom find themselves oppressed again when they arrive because of poverty (and sometimes also due to racism), thus they don't have as much opportunity or "freedom" in the sense of a rich white college boy or girl.

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