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Pseudo-patriotism Trumps Core American Values

When President Bush (news - web sites) visited Atlanta in mid-February, suburban housewife Sally Rountree decided to take the opportunity to show her opposition to the probable invasion of Iraq (news - web sites). So she scribbled a homemade sign -- "No War for Oil" -- and found a place along the route of the presidential motorcade, hoping Bush would see her protest.



As she tells it, she was never rude. She didn't shout. She didn't elbow other onlookers or jostle toward the front of the crowd. She merely stood holding her sign.


Nevertheless, for the offense of exercising her rights as a citizen of one of the world's greatest democracies, she was spat on, threatened and yelled at. One man went so far as to denounce her for wearing a cross around her neck, "insinuating I was not a Christian," she said.


As she wrote in an op-ed essay for the Atlanta Journal-Constitution: "I was frightened that my neighbors were going to hurt me because I dared to express my opinion. This could not be happening. Not in America, right?"


But it is happening here.


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OMG wtf!!! Is this what people mean by
RED WHITE AND BRAIN WASHED?!?!?!!?

The US has some sort of witch hunting mentality in it. It seems like it always needs to have an internal enemy to keep the society calm and united. This reminds me of 1950s communist hysteria.

I'm actually gonna quote Eminem now:

quote:

America!We love you!How many people are proud to be citizens of this beautiful country of ours?!The stripes and the stars and the rights for which men have died for to protect!The women and men who have broke their necks for the freedom of speech the Unites States government has sworn to uphold....or so we're told...

Draw your own conclusions.

Disclaimer:this quote does not represent my view on US,but is rather my acknowledgement of Eminem adressing one of the biggest problems in the US:failure to respect the freedom of speech that the US values so much.

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 The US has some sort of witch hunting mentality in it. It seems like it always needs to have an internal enemy to keep the society calm and united. This reminds me of 1950s communist hysteria.

What country isn't like this? What would happen if you went to france and held up a pro-USA sign? You would probably get the same reaction. This isn't a country thing ... it's a people thing. Let's face it 80% of the people you meet every day are going to be ignorant fools.

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Originally posted by Mental Exodus OMG wtf!!! Is this what people mean by RED WHITE AND BRAIN WASHED?!?!?!!?

umm you forgot what your own flag looks like, or at least one color!

the state of affairs in this article is most likely true tho, but one does need to remember she was in the South, possibly the most loyal area to a president like Bush. just because of this one specific incident doesnt allow you to generalize everywhere, for 300 million people in the States.

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Originally posted by occrider What country isn't like this? What would happen if you went to france and held up a pro-USA sign? You would probably get the same reaction. This isn't a country thing ... it's a people thing. Let's face it 80% of the people you meet every day are going to be ignorant fools.

I'm sorry but I don't agree completely here. The US has a level of patriotism and superiority complex that very few countries in history have shared.

The problem is getting worse as people who openly defy war and oppose the government are called un-american or traitors on even mainstream media.

Bill Maher was thrown off his show for speaking out against Bush and his government, people were furious that an "american" could dare say anything against the government after 9/11, calling him a traitor and un-american.

Having lived in Europe and North America I'd like to think I'm not speaking out of my ass on this There is of course patriotism in every country, but in most countries I've visited the patriotism is more of a pride thing like that of a proud parent.. In the US patriotism reminds me of a braggart boxer who thinks he is the best and nobody can stop him

I've always believed patriotism is a bad thing, to have a little is OK I suppose but in its worst form patriotism is a very dangerous thing and the US after 9/11 has really truly become a scary place to speak out against things for the citizens.

Oh some good reading as well on the issue of patriotism as a harmfull thing:

http://www.anti-state.com/ellis/ellis3.html

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchis...ismandgovt.html

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Originally posted by Thor I'm sorry but I don't agree completely here. The US has a level of patriotism and superiority complex that very few countries in history have shared. The problem is getting worse as people who openly defy war and oppose the government are called un-american or traitors on even mainstream media. Bill Maher was thrown off his show for speaking out against Bush and his government, people were furious that an "american" could dare say anything against the government after 9/11, calling him a traitor and un-american. Having lived in Europe and North America I'd like to think I'm not speaking out of my ass on this There is of course patriotism in every country, but in most countries I've visited the patriotism is more of a pride thing like that of a proud parent.. In the US patriotism reminds me of a braggart boxer who thinks he is the best and nobody can stop him I've always believed patriotism is a bad thing, to have a little is OK I suppose but in its worst form patriotism is a very dangerous thing and the US after 9/11 has really truly become a scary place to speak out against things for the citizens.

Well having lived in Europe as (Belgium and Vienna) I like to think that I'm not talking out of my ass either. I can say from firsthand knowledge that I saw a very strong "superiority complex" as you so described in Europe. However, when I came to the States I didn't really see anybody who thought they were better than any other place in Europe, however I did see more patriotism and pride in our country. That's just my own personel perspective. I really don't think that you, I, or anybody is really qualified to come to the determination that US patriotism is a "bragging" thing whereas European patriotism is more of a "pride" thing.

But you must see that patriotism is a bad thing right?

For what little good it does, there are so many more bad things that patriotism causes for it to ever be something good.

Ask a bhuddist about pride and patriotism

- Lately, Im surprised @ how some americans are acting. They've gone so far that they are even chancing the names of FRENCH FRIES to FREEDOM FIREs.. I mean.WTF!!!!! They show themselfs of how arrogant they get, its just so damm stupid, I feel like slapping them ! heheheJ/K. But for real though, I mean, if you show your opinion like that and this people came to this lady that she is not a Christian, then why is the POPE and most religious leaders against WAR?? I mean, most religious, as showed in a poll, are against war( except for the jewish community and maybe others) and those that have no religious values are FOR war.. most likely.. this is what I heard, but anyways, why doesnt that guy read some more of the NEWS and sees the POPE telling BUSH not to go to war?? I mean, he is a christian, yet, one of the CHRISTIAN LEADER ( BASICALLY MOST OF THEM) Oppose war.. dumm assssssssssssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees

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Originally posted by Thor But you must see that patriotism is a bad thing right? For what little good it does, there are so many more bad things that patriotism causes for it to ever be something good. Ask a bhuddist about pride and patriotism

No I will say patriotism can be a good thing. There is nothing wrong with having love for one's country and showing your support of it. I'm thankful everyday for the opportunities I've had in life.
Saying that patriotism is bad is like saying that anything you have a firm belief in that you share with other people is bad. I mean look at the twist side of things, I'm one of the few people in my age bracket who is pro-disarmament. I would imagine that if I made my views known to others in my crowd, I would be faced with similar critisicm and possible assaults. The principle of patriotism is to simply show support and love for one's country ... not forcefully influence others to. Nationalism is what I would call a bad thing and nothing good can come of it. However, patriotism does go bad when it starts infringing on the civil liberties of others. Much like anything else in society, patriotism should be practiced intelligently.

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Originally posted by LiquidX - Lately, Im surprised @ how some americans are acting. They've gone so far that they are even chancing the names of FRENCH FRIES to FREEDOM FIREs.. I mean.WTF!!!!! They show themselfs of how arrogant they get, its just so damm stupid, I feel like slapping them ! heheheJ/K. But for real though, I mean, if you show your opinion like that and this people came to this lady that she is not a Christian, then why is the POPE and most religious leaders against WAR?? I mean, most religious, as showed in a poll, are against war( except for the jewish community and maybe others) and those that have no religious values are FOR war.. most likely.. this is what I heard, but anyways, why doesnt that guy read some more of the NEWS and sees the POPE telling BUSH not to go to war?? I mean, he is a christian, yet, one of the CHRISTIAN LEADER ( BASICALLY MOST OF THEM) Oppose war.. dumm assssssssssssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees

Yea those people sicken me too, much like "professional protesters" as I like to call them. There are a lot of people on both sides who are ignorant of the facts. But what makes you say the Jewish community is all in support of war? I haven't seen any statistics on that and I would hate to see you stereotype like that. Anyway I don't think relgion really has a role in this. A lot of people in the South are religious and are for the war. I'm catholic and I'm pro-disarmament ... I think it's wise to separate religion from politics.

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Originally posted by occrider No I will say patriotism can be a good thing. There is nothing wrong with having love for one's country and showing your support of it. I'm thankful everyday for the opportunities I've had in life. Saying that patriotism is bad is like saying that anything you have a firm belief in that you share with other people is bad. I mean look at the twist side of things, I'm one of the few people in my age bracket who is pro-disarmament. I would imagine that if I made my views known to others in my crowd, I would be faced with similar critisicm and possible assaults. The principle of patriotism is to simply show support and love for one's country ... not forcefully influence others to. Nationalism is what I would call a bad thing and nothing good can come of it. However, patriotism does go bad when it starts infringing on the civil liberties of others. Much like anything else in society, patriotism should be practiced intelligently.

Good job, you have quite nicely distinguished the differences between patriotism and nationalism!

For the others: patriotism is a good thing - how do you think the Romans succeeded if it was not for patriotism? Indeed, as I see it, their patriotism was unparalleled in the world, then and now.

Nationalism is quite bad and as occrider said in his previous post, Europe tends to have a lot more nationalism than America! I know this first-hand as well, being from eastern Europe. I think the reason for this is that the European countries are a lot older and there are thus deeply rooted ideas and loyalties among the people. America, so to speak, is relatively "young" and is thus more open, etc. But that does not mean that there is no patriotism - on the contrary - just that a lot of prejudices and nationalistic ideas have not had enough time to creep in and develop (let's hope they never do).

Personally, I'm against the very idea of nations themselves, but not having them is quite impossible.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Yea those people sicken me too, much like "professional protesters" as I like to call them. There are a lot of people on both sides who are ignorant of the facts. But what makes you say the Jewish community is all in support of war? I haven't seen any statistics on that and I would hate to see you stereotype like that. Anyway I don't think relgion really has a role in this. A lot of people in the South are religious and are for the war. I'm catholic and I'm pro-disarmament ... I think it's wise to separate religion from politics.

- Im not stereotyping. Im going for the facts. And I know that Schlomo and melech can back me up here, they even SAID that it'll be very rare to see some Jewish going anti-war. Dont get me wrong occrider, I was referring to the article, not using religion as a whole. Since in the article there was a guy telling the woman that she was not a christian and blablabla.. well, you read it before, why mention again hehehehe. About majority, since the guy was saying that the woman was not a christian, I said that as showned on the polls, most religious people are against war.. and I knew that someone would jump on me and say that a vast large jewish community is por-war and I think we have talked about it before somewhere else of the why and so on. In no means im trying to include religion on politics. But this topic does include religion in a way, as we see that its actually playing not a great part, but it does have a role on it ( as the guy telling the woman that she was not christian). Im a christian, and IM too pro-dissament.. but I guess occrider you took my response the wrong way. And for me saying that most of the jewish community is pro-war, is by my own survey I've done around my friends and so on, and by what I see through our own TA boards.

Hehe ok I understand. I was just making sure. My question is though, are you referring to Israeli jews or jews as a whole. I can see many Israeli jews supporting a war against Iraq (since those two countries are at each others throats) but to be perfectly honest I haven't noticed very many american jews that are pro-war. No more so than any other race or religion in America. As a matter of fact most of my Jewish friends or acquantenances are anti-war and I'm usually the one trying to convince them that force should be used if necessary! Maybe it's different based upon region ... I dunno maybe all that miami sun does weird things to your head . You need a good dose of DC pollution hehe.

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Originally posted by occrider Hehe ok I understand. I was just making sure. My question is though, are you referring to Israeli jews or jews as a whole. I can see many Israeli jews supporting a war against Iraq (since those two countries are at each others throats) but to be perfectly honest I haven't noticed very many american jews that are pro-war. No more so than any other race or religion in America. As a matter of fact most of my Jewish friends or acquantenances are anti-war and I'm usually the one trying to convince them that force should be used if necessary! Maybe it's different based upon region ... I dunno maybe all that miami sun does weird things to your head . You need a good dose of DC pollution hehe.

LoL actually Miami, Florida is one of the states with one of the largest jewish community. Well, actually, I dont really know what the Jews from Israel think, but I've seen in various ocations that they are more tours anit-war. Right here though, I always hear my friends say that the war will be good for Israel. They see it from that point of view basically, non of whom I've asked has said that yeah Saddam is threatning the US or anything, they are basically more like.. its better for Israel. I've asked both Jews from Israel that live here, and those that dont. Though they do know and fear what war means. My teacher who is Jewish by religion, said that taking Saddam out MIGHT stabilize the regin and will benefit Israel, if not, it will be bad for israel.. that there are the two chances. Yesterday he gave his personal opinion, and said that disanment is good, and that war would be necessary if needed, but that Bush and his administration is not thinking nor knows the outcomes of a WAR. In all means.. A very difficult topic that bends to both sides eehhh ? hehehehe..

- About the Jewish supporting or not supporting, I think that our jewish friends could answer that better.

Hmmm maybe it's because a lot of my Jewish friends are not as closely affiliated to Israel. They are Jewish in the sense that yes that is their religion but they are ONLY American and they have no real ties with Israel, do you know what I mean? That may play a factor. Anyway I dispute your claim that miami has the biggest jewish population ... I used to live in Pittsburgh and I've never seen a bigger orthodox community anywhere else!

- I said that it has ONE of the biggest population, not THE biggest . And yeah, I know what you mean,probably thats the case with your friends. Like my friends all have parents that survived the Holocust or ran away becacause of the same, and they know jewish and they are so into going to the Israel Military and so on.. even the girls hehehehe..

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