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Posted by Great Outdoors on Mar-11-2003 19:04:

VU Meter Question

How should we be dealing with this in the bedroom? Are we not allowed, at all times, to let the meter hit the red? Is it any different establishing this in a club?

Posted by onceler on Mar-11-2003 19:55:

i believe it all is a matter of what kind of mixer you have
and if you have any other phun stuph like compressors and what not surrounding your toys.

for me, i spin on a Pioneer 500 @ home, and try to link it up so the meters on the mixer match those of sound forge. i usually try to go about 2 deep in the red when i spin @ home.

at the club it all depends on how they have their system setup, for the bigger clubs, there is usually someone there to check the sound

Posted by Tiger777 on Mar-11-2003 20:15:

Its depending on what kind of amplifier you have got. If you go into the red on your mixer, the amp will "clip". clipping means that the amp will send a different kind of electricity to your speakers. The speakers dont like that, and eventually, they'll get broken.
but, most amps these days are protected against clipping, so, it really doesnt matter much. Unless you record things, then you'll have bad audio quality when you go into the red. Although, it depends on your amp too, mine has a protection mode against clipping. So, if you have a good amp, it doesnt matter much

Posted by JohnSmith on Mar-11-2003 20:34:

BTW, some mixers LOOK like they are going into the red, when really they aren't. there is a common +6db exxageration on many consumer level electronics, including seemingly my vestax PCV275.

the 0db mark is where the red starts, but clipping and distortion don't start until +8 or so on the mixer.

in fact the sound is washed out and quiet at 0db, so i keep the lights between +6 and +8

Posted by Acid Circus on Mar-11-2003 22:20:

The sound is at its best quality at 0dB. This is the level manufacturers get all their vital statistics for the mixer. If it sounds quiet and washed out then your speaker/amplifier set-up is where the problem lies. I can't stand people who continually play deep into the red, especially the folks who turn up all the EQ's as well as the gain in an attempt for loudness, it just sounds mince so don't do it! The distortion will sound louder in a club than in your bedroom.

But John is right, most mixers don't start sounding badly distorted till around +8.

Posted by JohnSmith on Mar-11-2003 22:40:

oh i know, it drives me nuts too. but the i'm firmly convinced that the +6db on my mixer is actually +0. it pisses me off!

Posted by Dj Flesch on Mar-12-2003 00:11:

There have been several posts on this type of topic here so I'll try to recap. From a technical standpoint, it is best not to let the VU meter hit into the red becaues this will cause distortion and/or clipping (which is the stark elimination of a certain frequency range). When this happens, you will know it because it sounds like crap compared to the original.

In general, HIFI equipment isn't ment to "go into the red", but many HIFI systems have what is known as headspace. The headspace is the amount into the red that you can go before distortion and clipping take over. Since most mixer manufacturers know that those who use thier products are not audiophiles, (and that when djing if a dj wants more volume and his volume bars are maxed, then the next obvious choice is the gain) they allow the mixers to have a large headspace so to avoid clipping and distortion (overloading), which could be very detrimental to the loud PA system.

Because mixers are like this, it isn't actually that bad to spin into the red. I would suggest recording at or below the 0dB mark just from a technical standpoint, but it wouldn't really be noticable if you played a bit into the red...within reason and depending on what mixer you have, of course.

Posted by JohnSmith on Mar-12-2003 00:16:

OK flesch, but one thing confuses me, in regards to headspace.

my mixer sounds weak and muted at 0db, not NEARLY as loud as my cd player with the output volume turned up and the amp at the same level.

at about +6 db, it sounds about the same volume as a CD.

does this mean my mixer have +6db of headspace, meaning that i can play at +6db before it starts to distort?

I don't think so.. I think i am REALLY playing at +0db when i hit the +8 light. it's just the position of the labels and the color of the lights that determines the headspace!

is that incorrect?

Posted by Bryant on Mar-12-2003 09:13:

Posted by Dj Thy on Mar-12-2003 19:43:

Do you have a multimeter (digital prefered)? Run a constant 1000 Hz sine tone through your mixer and run it at 0 dB, then measure the voltage of your output connectors (with master full open). What do you get for measure? Get back to me and I'll tell you what dBu you are having at nominal level.

My Xone:62 operates at +4 dBu (= 1.23V RMS)when modulating the sine tone at 0 dB on the meters (like advertised on the specs). Meaning the Xone outputs at professional line level.

If you have a standardised mixer, it will either output at +4dBu (1.23 V RMS), pro level, or -10 dBV (=316mV RMS), consumer level.
Some mixers like the Stanton VRM-10 use their own standards (switchable between 0 dBu and +6 dBu).

Posted by Tiger777 on Mar-12-2003 20:47:

Anyway, like i read before, try not to go into red, its bad for your hifi...

Posted by Dj Flesch on Mar-14-2003 00:27:

quote:
Originally posted by JohnSmith
OK flesch, but one thing confuses me, in regards to headspace.

my mixer sounds weak and muted at 0db, not NEARLY as loud as my cd player with the output volume turned up and the amp at the same level.

at about +6 db, it sounds about the same volume as a CD.

does this mean my mixer have +6db of headspace, meaning that i can play at +6db before it starts to distort?

I don't think so.. I think i am REALLY playing at +0db when i hit the +8 light. it's just the position of the labels and the color of the lights that determines the headspace!

is that incorrect?

Well, I think that you are confusing your output levels (dB rating) of each device with relative volume. When you are plugging your cd player directly into your amp, it's like cutting out the middle man and therefore it is just a cleaner signal and it's not being modified by your mixer, (which is meant to modify the signal!).

I'll try not to get sidetracked and cut straight to the point Look for an attenuation knob on the back of your mixer. It should be a small knob that you will probably have to use a screwdriver to get to becaues most of the time they are resessed. This should boost the output of your mixer without you noticing a boost in your gain levels (on your mixer), but you will notice a volume output increase (from your speakers) when you do this. I don't know if all mixers have the ability to adjust the attenuation, so consult your users manual to see if you have one.

You can see what one looks like by going here:

http://www.pssl.com/bitemdetail.tpl...002111612043117

click on the back view and it is between the booth monitor RCA jacks and the Ch-4 phono RCA jacks, and above the XLR inputs.

Another thing to remember is that when you play in the red quite a lot is that you are putting excessive wear on the resistors in your equipment. This is the technical reason that it is bad to play in the red for long amounts of time. Heat generation will be higher and your mixer will not last quite as long--theoretically anyway. If you are recording mixes or just spinning, there are other, better was of amplification.

First for recording, just get any nominal sound program and use the normalize function, which will bring your loudest peak up to 0dB and adjust all the other volumes in proportion. Ie, it turns up the volume permanantly. If have a little more money and time, then you can get a compressor like this: http://www.fmraudio.com/ which is reasonably priced and will allow you to tweak the eq, just like on your mixer, but can alter the track permanantly for mastering purposes.

If you are spinning, then just crank up the volume on your amp or reciever, which ever one you use. This is a more effective way of getting things louder with minimal distortion.

Posted by Rememberence_ on Mar-16-2003 01:20:

thanks Flesch, I learned something from all that well said too.