Though the proposed changes in legislatures won’t affect me, I’m against this. The idea of a few media giants owning the whole of the media quite frankly scares me. Yes, I know the situation is practically like that now, but there is no need to make it any worse. On the whole, the general public believes what ever the media wants it to believe. Yes I know there are exceptions to this rule, but as a generalisation, it’s fairly accurate. With the control of the media in smaller and smaller groups this has the danger of narrowing the world view considerably. This is a very bad idea.

If we're operating under the premise that people can't think for themselves and will simply believe whatever the media tells them, why waste our time with a democracy at all?

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

This is simply alarming. The media has practically become a fourth part of our government in the checks and balances system. Consolidation of the media would make a major blow to not only Capitalism, but Democracy as well. I am wholehartedly against getting rid of these rules. Although I'd like to believe that people have independent minds, life experience has told me that the overwhelming majority does not. The media is an EXTREMELY powerful thing, and if left abused and unchecked, it could lead to disaster.

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Originally posted by Arbiter If we're operating under the premise that people can't think for themselves and will simply believe whatever the media tells them, why waste our time with a democracy at all? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

People can’t though. What does Democracy mean? – rule of the people. No one lives in a true democracy, we live in representative democracies. We choose people to represent our interests because as a whole people aren’t too sharp (I don’t mean individuals I mean the public as an entity of it’s own).

Secondly, democratic means were introduced long before the media ever had the word mass associated with it. I’m not saying they could suddenly say on TV, “This from now on is going to be a dictatorship” and everyone suddenly thinks the same. It’s a gradual, slow and subtle change that takes place. If you don’t think that it tries to and does actually change the way people think and act, then just what the hell is advertising?

Besides, power structures also have a lot to play. Both the people who end up becoming our politicians and the people who run the media form a powerful elite. Yes, I grant you others make up the group too and not all politicians come from here but they will certainly become influenced by the elite when they get any sort of power as politicians. Because we elect them, this legitimises their position. If the media can convince the masses that what the politicians are doing is in our best interests, they can get away with practically anything that they want.

Basically what I’m trying to say is that the elite can create an illusion through the media that what they do through the politicians is legitimate because of the way it has been elected by the people. So in final answer to your question; the false consciousness of democracy is self serving and in the best interests of them if the people think that they really have a say in the running of a country and what they do is in their benefit. It's not us who are having the cake and eating it, it's the powerful elite who are doing all the eating.

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Originally posted by Spin Doctor People can’t though. What does Democracy mean? – rule of the people. No one lives in a true democracy, we live in representative democracies. We choose people to represent our interests because as a whole people aren’t too sharp (I don’t mean individuals I mean the public as an entity of it’s own). Secondly, democratic means were introduced long before the media ever had the word mass associated with it. I’m not saying they could suddenly say on TV, “This from now on is going to be a dictatorship” and everyone suddenly thinks the same. It’s a gradual, slow and subtle change that takes place. If you don’t think that it tries to and does actually change the way people think and act, then just what the hell is advertising? Besides, power structures also have a lot to play. Both the people who end up becoming our politicians and the people who run the media form a powerful elite. Yes, I grant you others make up the group too and not all politicians come from here but they will certainly become influenced by the elite when they get any sort of power as politicians. Because we elect them, this legitimises their position. If the media can convince the masses that what the politicians are doing is in our best interests, they can get away with practically anything that they want. Basically what I’m trying to say is that the elite can create an illusion through the media that what they do through the politicians is legitimate because of the way it has been elected by the people. So in final answer to your question; the false consciousness of democracy is self serving and in the best interests of them if the people think that they really have a say in the running of a country and what they do is in their benefit. It's not us who are having the cake and eating it, it's the powerful elite who are doing all the eating.

Agreed ... although a pure democracy may seem the most idealistic system of self government it isn't. There needs to be a superior system in place to regulate and prohibit an absolute concentration of power. Think about it ... if an absolute domocracy were in place wouldn't that ensure the rule of the majority over the minority? It's funny to see some people bash government "infringements" on civil liberties when these "infringements" are in place to ensure the rights of the minorities. At any rate government intervention is fully warranted when it involves a fair representation and consideration for all segmeents of society.

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Retro ...

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Originally posted by Spin Doctor People can’t though. What does Democracy mean? – rule of the people. No one lives in a true democracy, we live in representative democracies. We choose people to represent our interests because as a whole people aren’t too sharp (I don’t mean individuals I mean the public as an entity of it’s own). Secondly, democratic means were introduced long before the media ever had the word mass associated with it. I’m not saying they could suddenly say on TV, “This from now on is going to be a dictatorship” and everyone suddenly thinks the same. It’s a gradual, slow and subtle change that takes place. If you don’t think that it tries to and does actually change the way people think and act, then just what the hell is advertising? Besides, power structures also have a lot to play. Both the people who end up becoming our politicians and the people who run the media form a powerful elite. Yes, I grant you others make up the group too and not all politicians come from here but they will certainly become influenced by the elite when they get any sort of power as politicians. Because we elect them, this legitimises their position. If the media can convince the masses that what the politicians are doing is in our best interests, they can get away with practically anything that they want. Basically what I’m trying to say is that the elite can create an illusion through the media that what they do through the politicians is legitimate because of the way it has been elected by the people. So in final answer to your question; the false consciousness of democracy is self serving and in the best interests of them if the people think that they really have a say in the running of a country and what they do is in their benefit. It's not us who are having the cake and eating it, it's the powerful elite who are doing all the eating.

In general, I agree. However, from a dialectical standpoint, trying to find a "middle ground" where we give the average person some influence, but then try to manipulate the circumstances which influence their decisions isn't really consistent.

In short, "the people" either are qualified to govern or they are not. If they are, then such regulations would be unnecessary. If they are not, then democracy is the rule of the unqualified.

In theory, a representative democracy is instituted to reduce the direct influence of the people because they are, to a degree, unqualified. However, if the people aren't qualified to make the decisions themselves, what makes one think they are any more qualified to select the people to make those decisions? Especially when the people select the decision-makers on the basis of the decisions they say they will make?

I think it's fairly clear at this juncture that democracy, including representative democracy, doesn't work as a political system. The difficulty, of course, is defining a viable alternative.

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Originally posted by Arbiter The difficulty, of course, is defining a viable alternative.

though something tells me you have an idea or two up in your mind


i see your guy's point, but i dont see it as that pessimistic if such regulations are removed. i dont think there would ever be a monopolized media outlet just because of the 'flow of nature'. here's what i mean:
one could generalize that up until a few years ago most media was left/liberal stanced, this created a opening for a conservative based channel - enter FOX news, which now has the highest viewer rating for news channel in america. same could be said for al-jezeera. the lack of american biased news outlets made al-jezeera sky rocket in popularity when word got around about it.
So using these examples one could say that there will always be a action - reaction in terms of media (ala hegel). Who's to say that when one media outlet attains supra mass audience, that a competitor with opposing views will emerge... maybe even one with an equal balance of both will succeed.

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

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Originally posted by Arbiter If we're operating under the premise that people can't think for themselves and will simply believe whatever the media tells them, why waste our time with a democracy at all? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

There's just one problem. Your decisions, while being free, are based on the information you gain. And the media is usually responsible for the majority of information gained by an individual. And there really isn't a secure way of verifying those informations are true or not. For all we know, war in Iraq might not have happened at all. The reason you know about war in Iraq is because the media told you so.

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In short, "the people" either are qualified to govern or they are not. If they are, then such regulations would be unnecessary. If they are not, then democracy is the rule of the unqualified. In theory, a representative democracy is instituted to reduce the direct influence of the people because they are, to a degree, unqualified. However, if the people aren't qualified to make the decisions themselves, what makes one think they are any more qualified to select the people to make those decisions? Especially when the people select the decision-makers on the basis of the decisions they say they will make?

It's easier to choose a good leader than to be one. For example, you don't have to be very smart to see a leader of a country has doubled the economic growth. However, you do have to be smart to do such a thing yourself.

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So using these examples one could say that there will always be a action - reaction in terms of media (ala hegel). Who's to say that when one media outlet attains supra mass audience, that a competitor with opposing views will emerge... maybe even one with an equal balance of both will succeed.

Unless that one media gains enough money to buy all opposing media companies as soon as they are created. Think of Creative's Sound Blaster and Aureal 3d. Aureal was a better card with better effects, but Creative bought the Aureal company very soon, and stopped all further development of that technology. Same could happen with media if it's left unmonitored.

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1+1=10

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Unless that one media gains enough money to buy all opposing media companies as soon as they are created. Think of Creative's Sound Blaster and Aureal 3d. Aureal was a better card with better effects, but Creative bought the Aureal company very soon, and stopped all further development of that technology. Same could happen with media if it's left unmonitored.

Agreed. Look it's quite simple. Simply view the media as an industry. In as much as we have anti-trust laws to prevent say Microsoft from forming a monopoly in the software market, we need anti-trust laws in the media to prevent a monopoly from forming that could easily annihilate any other companies or newcomers to the market.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 There's just one problem. Your decisions, while being free, are based on the information you gain. And the media is usually responsible for the majority of information gained by an individual. And there really isn't a secure way of verifying those informations are true or not. For all we know, war in Iraq might not have happened at all. The reason you know about war in Iraq is because the media told you so.

Barring a global monopoly, the ease of worldwide communications renders any such national monopoly impotent to control the flow of information to those who don't already exhibit a high degree of apathy.

quote:

It's easier to choose a good leader than to be one. For example, you don't have to be very smart to see a leader of a country has doubled the economic growth. However, you do have to be smart to do such a thing yourself.

I would have agreed with you, before the American people selected George Bush. Now I think otherwise. The campaign process is a methodical and deliberate process of deception on a massive scale. It is those individuals most adept at such deception, those individuals who are precisely most contemptible and the worst kind of leaders, that naturally rise to power under such a scheme.

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Originally posted by Arbiter The campaign process is a methodical and deliberate process of deception on a massive scale. It is those individuals most adept at such deception, those individuals who are precisely most contemptible and the worst kind of leaders, that naturally rise to power under such a scheme.

Couldn't agree with you more. I think alot of people realize this, and just don't vote. Of course, this only adds to the problem. Unfortunately, instead of being proactive, people just sulk and don't care anymore. The problem is this:

Say you're an honest candidate, and you make reasonable promises. How is the voter going to believe you over the next guy who is lying, but making more attractive promises? Either voters think all candidates are liars, and don't vote; or they believe whatever you say and vote for the liar, since his promises are more appealing.

What this country needs is a strong, independent organization holding political candidates accountable for the actions they take. Perhaps a third party would do. There is a huge block of people not voting, so there is the possibility of voter support. What this party needs to do is base their campaign strategy on honesty and integrity, and enforce it. If a candidate from this party is a liar or a cheat, they will get kicked out of the party, loose funding, etc... They need to keep their image clean, and review the progress of each candidate as far as promises kept, etc. This would have to be highly organized, but it could be done. Kind of like running a political party like an army, instead of a beach resort (DemoPublicans). Candidates will make good on their promises, and they can use this as fuel for future elections.

The political stance could be very moderate, yet their diferentiation from other parties will be in the form of responsibility. Name it the Responsibilocrat party or something. There is enough frustration about politics out there that this might actually work! You could easily get some defections from other parties, like John McCain, Russ Feingold, etc.

The only problem I see with this is funding. Because the party would not serve interest groups, it would be impossible to get lobbyist money, etc. But then again, the people who support this kind of thing don't need crappy yet expensive ads to win their vote. Campaigns could be organized from the grassroots level, and pent up frustration could be the fuel. Potential voters do need to believe that the party is credible, though, and some high level defections could make that happen. Even if the party does not win major elections, it would put pressure on the other two parties to clean up their act at least a ltiile bit.

Anyways, just a thought...