The conservative mindset is also based on original values. Most conservatives do not like change, hence they fear ethnic groups working alongside them. They want to restore the government back to how it was when this country was started, where the rich were plantation owners, lawyers, etc. and the minorities worked under them. I'm not saying conservatives want to enslave people again (although same may want that), but the basis of fear for conservatives is that we now live in a society where you can be working alongside women and minorities. It is the fear of change.

very astute obervations Dave, although one might argue that your two "pillars" dialectically reinforce each other and are thus not mutually exclusive.

In a broader and more Hobbesian sense, your two pillars undergird what's wrong with not only American conservatism, but with the human condition writ large.

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quote:

Originally posted by Galapidate and the minorities worked under them.

just a note...in the very early days of the American colonies, white indenturred servants were more common that black ones. Hispanics were unheard of in the colonies.
But, I agree with your statement. Conservatives are afraid of fear because, I believe, they think it will undermine the political structure of the country.

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It has to start sometime,
What better place then here?
What better time than now?
--Rage Against the Machine

Ahem,

I consider myself to be a conservative and I don't particularly think that any of the points in your argument accurately describe any of the philosophical/political/economic views of my country and the world at large. You're making terrible generalizations the same way I tend to make generalizations about frigging liberals.

I would tread very lightly in attempting to stereotype an entire political ideaology Dave. Perhaps some examples of extreme conservatism can subscribe to those principles, but by and large, conservativism cannot be defined by the actions of the few examples of conservativism you have seen (Rush Limbaugh, Bush, etc.). Conservativism runs the gamut on pretty much all issues in as much as liberalism does.

If you are going to characterize conservativism by its extremes, then I suppose I could label liberalism as being those who think that a society can just tax and spend its way into prosperity while ignoring the primary motivating factor of individuals: consequences and responsibility. Without those factors in a society, there's no fear that if you're too lazy at work, you might get fired and have to live in the streets because the liberal social safety net will take care of you. Liberalism condones a society without consequence with a mantra of: Do what feels right for you, and that's good enough. However, I know that it is overly simplistic to characterize liberalism as such since there are varying shades and degrees of liberalism. In the same regard it is overly simplistic to label conservativism as being motivated by fear and greed. One could quite easily make similar parrallels of fear and greed within liberalism (it's not greedy to want to take money from those who have earned it and give it to those who may not deserve it?).

There is no one unilaterially correct political position that benefits every person equally in the practical world. Capitalism shafts the lazy and the disabled, Communism shafts the hardworking and the motivated, etc. Since everyone is a different person and has different needs, it makes sense for individuals to have differing viewpoints.

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Last edited by occrider on Sep-28-2003 at 04:03

quote:

Originally posted by Galapidate The conservative mindset is also based on original values. Most conservatives do not like change, hence they fear ethnic groups working alongside them. They want to restore the government back to how it was when this country was started, where the rich were plantation owners, lawyers, etc. and the minorities worked under them. I'm not saying conservatives want to enslave people again (although same may want that), but the basis of fear for conservatives is that we now live in a society where you can be working alongside women and minorities. It is the fear of change.

Ummmm I disagree with your line of reasoning. If you're going to base your criticisms of conservativism as being a desire to return to "slavery" one could just as easily make similar erroneous criticisms by claiming that conservatives desire a return to the caveman days or any misery prone days in past. Conservativism in no way embodies ANY specific political/social/anything ideaology at all. It merely implies a desire to maintain the status quo or a cautionary almost grounded approach towards new issues/ideas. For example, an individual would be prudent to be conservative when handling his money. One would be conservative about changing the constitution. Is this bad???

Now in your argument, you seemed to implicate conservativism as a proponent of racial inequality (as opposed to social inequality). I'm somewhat amused since the best example I can think of, of race based discrimination tolerated in our time comes from extremist liberalism. Two words:






Affirmative Action

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quote:

Originally posted by occrider I would tread very lightly in attempting to stereotype an entire political ideaology Dave. Perhaps some examples of extreme conservatism can subscribe to those principles, but by and large, conservativism cannot be defined by the actions of the few examples of conservativism you have seen (Rush Limbaugh, Bush, etc.). Conservativism runs the gamut on pretty much all issues in as much as liberalism does. If you are going to characterize conservativism by its extremes, then I suppose I could label liberalism as being those who think that a society can just tax and spend its way into prosperity while ignoring the primary motivating factor of individuals: consequences and responsibility. Without those factors in a society, there's no fear that if you're too lazy at work, you might get fired and have to live in the streets because the liberal social safety net will take care of you. Liberalism condones a society without consequence with a mantra of: Do what feels right for you, and that's good enough. However, I know that it is overly simplistic to characterize liberalism as such since there are varying shades and degrees of liberalism. In the same regard it is overly simplistic to label conservativism as being motivated by fear and greed. One could quite easily make similar parrallels of fear and greed within liberalism (it's not greedy to want to take money from those who have earned it and give it to those who may not deserve it?). There is no one unilaterially correct political position that benefits every person equally in the practical world. Capitalism shafts the lazy and the disabled, Communism shafts the hardworking and the motivated, etc. Since everyone is a different person and has different needs, it makes sense for individuals to have differing viewpoints.

Very well said.

I was hoping someone would take me to the cleaners (so to speak) on my comments because that's how one learns new ways of thinking. Ultimately I decided to write down my thoughs for the purpose of obtaining feedback from people with different belief systems, and also I admit it was partly out of anger.

You're correct that I am stereotyping an entire group of people and grouping all of the more centrist people in with the extreme right. This is perhaps not a very fair thing to do on my part.
I have also said before that in my opinion extreme liberalism can also be just as dangerous as extreme conservatism.

However I still stand by my assertion that the right wing is gripped by a deap seated fear of many different things (the greatest of which is a fear of change). You have shown me that the extreme left is also gripped by a kind of greed that is both like and unlike that which grips the extreme right. This further supports my theory that greed is secondary to fear in this eqation.

It would be great if people on both sides of the aisle would try and explain why they adhere to their respective belief systems in this thread. In fact I invite the people who read this thread to please do so.

On another note, the guy who was renting my sig has been kicked out by me (the almighty landlord).

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quote:

Originally posted by DaveSaenz However I still stand by my assertion that the right wing is gripped by a deap seated fear of many different things (the greatest of which is a fear of change). You have shown me that the extreme left is also gripped by a kind of greed that is both like and unlike that which grips the extreme right. This further supports my theory that greed is secondary to fear in this eqation.

Fear of change for the worse ... not necessarily fear of change in general. As if liberals aren't prone to fear and paranoia as well? (How many conspiracy theories have we seen on these boards? What of liberal paranoia against WTO, IMF, etc.? What of the actions of elf or other eco-terrorists? How many comparisons do we see of the US barreling down the path of Nazi Germany?)

I must admit, it is funny to see each side try to differentiate themselves from the other as if their human nature were intrinsically different. Please, the position of your political beliefs along the conservative/liberal scale define your character or your human nature???

The reason why I refuse to define myself as either conservative or liberal (or put myself in a political party and vote along those lines) is because I believe that ideology, of any kind, is the enemy, along with group association. As soon as you are part of a "we", ANY "we", you have stopped paying attention to the world.

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Amen to that, Occrider! I try to use a common sense approach, personally. Groups are dangerous, indeed.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider The reason why I refuse to define myself as either conservative or liberal (or put myself in a political party and vote along those lines) is because I believe that ideology, of any kind, is the enemy, along with group association. As soon as you are part of a "we", ANY "we", you have stopped paying attention to the world.

Or you could be severely confused and have no idea which way to turn. And while you just want to appease to both sides, deep inside you're a confused individual on the edge of going berzerk for sitting on the fence oh so long. Kinda like Pac Man stuck in a Galaga game - I don't know how to shoot the bastards, should I just eat them instead? How will that look like to the player who put his quarter in the game? Da hell's he gonna expect? Da hell he's gonna want from me now?!?!?

I knew I had you pinned.

I hate Mondays.

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Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Or you could be severely confused and have no idea which way to turn. And while you just want to appease to both sides, deep inside you're a confused individual on the edge of going berzerk for sitting on the fence oh so long. Kinda like Pac Man stuck in a Galaga game - I don't know how to shoot the bastards, should I just eat them instead? How will that look like to the player who put his quarter in the game? Da hell's he gonna expect? Da hell he's gonna want from me now?!?!? I knew I had you pinned. I hate Mondays.

No you forget ... it's all a deception to hide my true identity

/runs off to buy more halliburton stock.

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