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Originally posted by dj adagnitio I think this is a good example of how a country should behave. I realy respect Lula for recognizing Brazil's colonial debt to Africa. It also seems to me that this is largely an effort by him to gain support for his so called alliance of the developing world in the WTO talks.

I'm impressed by Lula. I agree that Presidents should recognize their debts/cultural backrounds with other countries. Before running for President/leader, a person should have a complete understanding of his/her place in the world and where we all came from. Too many leaders don't know the history of their own country to the full extent.

Cultural background I can understand but "debts"...please.

I can't be charged for a murder my grandfather, or great-great-great grandfather for that matter committed, but somehow current residents of a country are to be held in "debt" for injustices performed hundreds of years ago?

First, back when those crimes were committed, they weren't seen as crimes. Secondly, people living today that didn't commit those crimes shouldn't have a "debt" to the progeny of Africans that lived 200 years ago, who themselves are not directly affected.

Understand history in order not to repeat its mistakes, but don't hold the present accountable for the actions of the past.

Just my two cents.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono Cultural background I can understand but "debts"...please. I can't be charged for a murder my grandfather, or great-great-great grandfather for that matter committed, but somehow current residents of a country are to be held in "debt" for injustices performed hundreds of years ago? First, back when those crimes were committed, they weren't seen as crimes. Secondly, people living today that didn't commit those crimes shouldn't have a "debt" to the progeny of Africans that lived 200 years ago, who themselves are not directly affected. Understand history in order not to repeat its mistakes, but don't hold the present accountable for the actions of the past. Just my two cents.

I think that when a country exploits another and benefits from it, it has a reasponcibility to it to share the benefits from it. Had Brazil not taken those slaves, the places they were taken from would probably be better off, and Brazil would be worse off.

I mean to use another example, if your grandfather stole money from the Jews in WW2 and you inheritaed it. Then you still owe it to whomever it was taken from. It is not rightfully yours.

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I don't agree. Modern-day Brazilians shouldn't have to pay for their ancestors "crimes." There has to be a statute of limitations on this type of thing. If for no other reason, then because after this many generations, many Brazilians no longer have any common ancestory with those that had slaves.
It's like myself in the USA. My family didn't come over to the United States until just before World War II...do I owe money to black Americans today because of our history of slavery? My family didn't own slaves, but I'm white...so by your logic, I'm automatically guilty. And what about African Americans that came to the US after slavery was abolished...do they get reperations too? You see, after 200 years, the blood lines on both sides are so diluted, it's impossible to fairly take away from some and give it to others.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono I don't agree. Modern-day Brazilians shouldn't have to pay for their ancestors "crimes." There has to be a statute of limitations on this type of thing. If for no other reason, then because after this many generations, many Brazilians no longer have any common ancestory with those that had slaves. It's like myself in the USA. My family didn't come over to the United States until just before World War II...do I owe money to black Americans today because of our history of slavery? My family didn't own slaves, but I'm white...so by your logic, I'm automatically guilty. And what about African Americans that came to the US after slavery was abolished...do they get reperations too? You see, after 200 years, the blood lines on both sides are so diluted, it's impossible to fairly take away from some and give it to others.

I thought we're already issuing reparations ... isn't it called affirmative action?

Anyway, I more or less agree.

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Originally posted by occrider I thought we're already issuing reparations ...

When the African Americans receive their reparations they can pass it right along to the people whose land they've been squatting on for the past 150 years.

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Originally posted by Arbiter When the African Americans receive their reparations they can pass it right along to the people whose land they've been squatting on for the past 150 years.

Haha ... you get your casinos already! So when do the neanderthals get their reparations and how much are the punitive damages going to be for complete extermination?

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Retro ...

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Originally posted by NeoPhono I don't agree. Modern-day Brazilians shouldn't have to pay for their ancestors "crimes." There has to be a statute of limitations on this type of thing. If for no other reason, then because after this many generations, many Brazilians no longer have any common ancestory with those that had slaves. It's like myself in the USA. My family didn't come over to the United States until just before World War II...do I owe money to black Americans today because of our history of slavery? My family didn't own slaves, but I'm white...so by your logic, I'm automatically guilty. And what about African Americans that came to the US after slavery was abolished...do they get reperations too? You see, after 200 years, the blood lines on both sides are so diluted, it's impossible to fairly take away from some and give it to others.

This is true, bit it only stays true when we look at it at an individual level. It is true that Augusto in Brazil doesnt owe George in Kenya money because of slavery. But I think Brazil as a country does hold at least some semblence of a a debt to Kenya as a country for the slaves that were taken and have helped to build Brazil to where it is today.

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You say "debt." Okay, assign a value, tell me why it is that amount. Next tell me who is going to pay, and how much, and why. Next, tell me who is going to get the reperations, how much and why. If you mean debt as in "they owe part of their culture to them," that's one thing, but if you're trying to put some physical value on it, it's impossible.

OCC...I never thought of affirmative action like that. I've always seen it as reverse discrimination. I know it's a whole 'nother subject, but I could never figure out how the inequality of affirmative action was supposed to lead to equality. Just doesn't make sense to me.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono You say "debt." Okay, assign a value, tell me why it is that amount. Next tell me who is going to pay, and how much, and why. Next, tell me who is going to get the reperations, how much and why. If you mean debt as in "they owe part of their culture to them," that's one thing, but if you're trying to put some physical value on it, it's impossible. OCC...I never thought of affirmative action like that. I've always seen it as reverse discrimination. I know it's a whole 'nother subject, but I could never figure out how the inequality of affirmative action was supposed to lead to equality. Just doesn't make sense to me.

Clearly one cannot asign a definite dollar amount to the debt owed to Africans. The point that is being made both by me and Lula, is that Brazil, as well as many other places owes Africa something. Lula is recognizing this and making reperations by funding education and health programs. He is the one putting the dollar figure to the debt. The one getting the reperations is everyone in whereever the programs are being enacted and the one repaying it is the government of Brazil. It is clearly impossible to calculate an exact dollar figure. But one can say that they are owed SOMETHING, and go from there.

And affirmative action leads to equality in clear ways as it legislates equal employment regardless of race, sex, etc. If you see that regardless of education, etc. Black people are still less likely to be employed then white how is unreasonable to legislate that they have to be employed in an equal way? and I can't see in any way how it doesn't lead to equality?

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DJ Tiesto - Battleship Grey (Miro remix)
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But the Brazilian already payed their debt to buy Africans to the Africans once, when they bought them.

Shouldn't it then be the debt the African's owe the Africans??

What about the Omani arabs that ruled Kenya during this time, or the French that did much of the slaving, what precentage of the debt should they contribute??

So confusing...