quote:

Originally posted by Shakka You mean these people might actually have a brighter tomorrow? I wonder how long it will take for someone to post a picture of that poor boy who lost his arms. It's a nice change of pace from the prisoner abuse photos, that's for sure.

Agreed. But I'm kinda curious as to where this photo was taken from. It could in all likelihood be taken from the Kurds up north, where things are pretty darn hunky-dorry, esp. in comparison to most other places in Iraq.

Mr. Drudge has a minor propensity for slanting things. Just in case you didn't know.

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Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

It doesn't even matter anymore what the U.S. says and/or does in the eyes of the Arab World the image has been set for a long time to come about the U.S. presence in Iraq. The incidents in Iraq made a bad situation the worst. All the U.S. can do now is take its lumps and move forward and hopefully get out of Iraq as soon as is feasible, the damage is done.

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Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Mr. Drudge has a minor propensity for slanting things. Just in case you didn't know.

Only took 1 reply to have that pointed out! You're sharp today!

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Only took 1 reply to have that pointed out! You're sharp today!

Sharp as a butterknife!

But seriously, Drudge cracks me up when he posts counterpoint crud like this. We are facing a serious credibility and image problem in the Arab world right now, and he has the gall to post a picture of flowers and children smothering a US soldier?

Yeah, that really makes me feel oh so much better about our situation. Thanks, Mr. Drudge, you put things in such a great perspective!

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

okay, sure, these people perhaps will have a better future, but that future will not be tomorrow. it will take many years. perhaps as many years as it would have done until someone overthrowed saddam. they obviously have to much pride in themselves too let the US "liberate" them. also i'm doubtful if US will ever have the patience to finish this "project", and if they leave it halffinished they have created much more problems than they have solved.

but that's really not the main issue. the main issue is for what reasons you really went to war. it was a bunch of lies, really if you look at it, bush lied more than saddam in this war. don't say you did this to liberate iraq, cause that is 100% bullshit (if you can't convince me, you obviously can't convince the arabs either, and therefore it doesn't really matter it that is fact or not, people think like this, no need to argue about it really...)! you had other reasons. and that is what pissing off the arabs (which i can understand, i would be rather pissed of too in their situation). so, making them anger = more USA haters = more potential terrorists = bad decision to go to war in the first place.

one more problem is that you are really forcing your political system upon them. i think you wouldn't be too glad if europe or iraq or whatever invaded you and forced their political system upon you. or would you?

somewhat i can understand the argument that they will perhaps get a better future. but yeah, under the circumstances it just doesn't make any sense.

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Agreed. But I'm kinda curious as to where this photo was taken from. It could in all likelihood be taken from the Kurds up north, where things are pretty darn hunky-dorry, esp. in comparison to most other places in Iraq.

Tell me if I'm wrong but isn't that the point he's trying to make? I.e. it's not all bad. I mean obviously things ain't great but I would say 20 years from now things will be better (tho it's gonna have a cost) than what they would have been. I know it's gay point to make but it s none the less true. A counter point would be what about a political solution, I would say that failed.

Besides who here can truely say that before the war you weren't for it? The reson I say that it is easy to be critical of the way it's been handled but any critisim must be tempered with the knowlage that it is a hell of a difficult problem. Obviously that doesn't mean there is no reson to critise but also there is no reson not to congratulate. The troops have done some amazing work there, and constantly distracting from that is folly.

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If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew one more problem is that you are really forcing your political system upon them. i think you wouldn't be too glad if europe or iraq or whatever invaded you and forced their political system upon you. or would you?

I agree with that to an extent, however in this period (now I mean) technically it's an occupation (not democratic). It will become democratic, therefore in the future they can vote for whatever they want. I mean in some ways a benovlant dictator is a better solution, but in reality the old "power" and "absolute power" thing comes into effect.

Also is it not possible that rather than lying the inteligance was just wrong?

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If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

I've said it before, but it doesn't really matter what you or I think or what our perceptions are. The critical opinion of course are the opinions of the Iraqi people themselves. As such, I would derive evaluations of coalition progress from the opinion polls that have been coming out. They are quite detailed in documenting Iraqi opinions on everything ranging from coalition military offenses to quality of life to future estimations of quality of life.

I find it odd that people manage to derive page after page of analyses from 5 or 10 photos yet when it comes to hard statistical data which could indicate a whole slew of pros and cons, very few people broke down the statistics to analyze each component .

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Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by occrider I've said it before, but it doesn't really matter what you or I think or what our perceptions are. The critical opinion of course are the opinions of the Iraqi people themselves. As such, I would derive evaluations of coalition progress from the opinion polls that have been coming out. They are quite detailed in documenting Iraqi opinions on everything ranging from coalition military offenses to quality of life to future estimations of quality of life.

Yes in a sence, but rember that is a percived measure. That is it is what the Iraqis currently percive. And what is percived is often differnt from actual fact. Obviously you can start heading towards "we know better than them whats good for emm'" territory but I think you'd agree that opinion polls are just that opinion polls(which detail current perception) not alot else.

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If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

quote:

Originally posted by Dervish Yes in a sence, but rember that is a percived measure. That is it is what the Iraqis currently percive. And what is percived is often differnt from actual fact. Obviously you can start heading towards "we know better than them whats good for emm'" territory but I think you'd agree that opinion polls are just that opinion polls(which detail current perception) not alot else.

Who is in a better position to relate the quality of life conditions than those who are living that life? I mean is an Iraqi's perception of a hard metric, such as how long they have electricity during the day, going to be tainted?

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Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by Dervish Tell me if I'm wrong but isn't that the point he's trying to make? I.e. it's not all bad. I mean obviously things ain't great but I would say 20 years from now things will be better (tho it's gonna have a cost) than what they would have been. I know it's gay point to make but it s none the less true. A counter point would be what about a political solution, I would say that failed.

Well yeah, it's obvious that Drudge is trying to make this point. But it seems more obvious that he's merely making the point as a distraction to the major crisis taking place throughout the rest of Iraq. I'm glad kids are smiling here. I'm glad the serviceman is showered with flowers.

Now, could we maybe find some WMD? Oh yeah, there aren't any.

Could we maybe find a way to curb the growing distress, anger and resentment the Iraqi people have towards us (according to the recent Iraqi polls last week)? Oh yeah, well, that's a tough one, esp. with these lovely torture images all over the place, and with hundreds more to go.

quote:

Besides who here can truely say that before the war you weren't for it? The reson I say that it is easy to be critical of the way it's been handled but any critisim must be tempered with the knowlage that it is a hell of a difficult problem. Obviously that doesn't mean there is no reson to critise but also there is no reson not to congratulate. The troops have done some amazing work there, and constantly distracting from that is folly.

Of course, hindsight 20/20, I concede this argument slightly. But I supported the war on the premise that WMD was pointed at our heads, not because we were going to liberate the Iraqi people.

But as it stands, no WMD found, and we're hardly seen as liberators. With the recent Red Cross report coming out showing that we just arrested Iraqi people without any good reason, and that up to 90% of Iraqi detainees were arrested by mistake, it's becoming obvious that it's not just the image of us being "liberators" is incorrect - it may very well be the reality:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/iraq...ws-abuse11.html

quote:

Also is it not possible that rather than lying the inteligance was just wrong?

How do you define a "lie"? If you define it as stretching the facts to fit the story and deliberately ignoring counter evidence to support your case, than I believe it should be called "lying". If you do not wish to define it that way - fine. But either way, it was misleading, and we went to war on false pretenses.

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Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...