Would anyone be surprised by this, its the age old adage at play. The French seem to have an infatuation with being seen as a great and central power in dealing with America. This is just a reflection of overall social P.O.Vs as far as I am concerned. Anyone who believes this is off base I have two words for you, Core Europe, if you kept up with the latest news from Europe as I do ask France, Belgium, Luxembourg, and oh Germany. Everyone knows their goal is the creation of a European Superstate, and then we wonder why Poland wants to make sure its voice is heard in any decision making in the E.U. I am puzzled as to why the masses of this great bastion of democratic principles (E.U.) isn't upset when they hear the concept of a Core Europe put forth by Monsieur Chirac and Herr Schroeder. Apparently dissenting voices have begun to be shown in violent ways. 4 letter bombs sent to members of the E.U. Parliament including Signor Romano Prodi.

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whats the big deal?

you seen *any* American media taking the Iraqi side?

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Certainly its not a big deal, I feel the original post however demonstrated more of a Comical Ali approach to the war coverage by some well known French media outlets, as opposed to responsible journalism but who cares now, we know what happened in some form or another in Iraq.

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Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

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quote:

you seen *any* American media taking the Iraqi side?

I have seen American media take the Iraqi *peoples* side on numerous occasions, not the Iraqi *governments* side. There is a subtle yet huge difference there.

It unfortunatly was the Iraqi people who have had to deal with the actions of "their" government throughout the past decades. Since the people of Iraq have had little say in the course of their "leaders," I do tend to empathize with the wrath they have had to bear. However, I find no reason to support the actions of, or sympathize with the government previously found in Iraq. How the French media could possibly could twist and distort the actions of the Saddam regime to support their anti-American sentiments is laughable and dispicable, in my opinion. It's good to know that France has totally forgot about World War II.

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Originally posted by NYCTrancefan Would anyone be surprised by this, its the age old adage at play. The French seem to have an infatuation with being seen as a great and central power in dealing with America. This is just a reflection of overall social P.O.Vs as far as I am concerned. Anyone who believes this is off base I have two words for you, Core Europe, if you kept up with the latest news from Europe as I do ask France, Belgium, Luxembourg, and oh Germany. Everyone knows their goal is the creation of a European Superstate, and then we wonder why Poland wants to make sure its voice is heard in any decision making in the E.U. I am puzzled as to why the masses of this great bastion of democratic principles (E.U.) isn't upset when they hear the concept of a Core Europe put forth by Monsieur Chirac and Herr Schroeder. Apparently dissenting voices have begun to be shown in violent ways. 4 letter bombs sent to members of the E.U. Parliament including Signor Romano Prodi.

I don't see what is wrong with creating the european superstate, or the Core Europe in the first place. If countries want to do so, there is no reason to stop them, especially since the majority of germans and french support the stronger EU. Now, as for poland, they are demanding to have almost the same amount of votes in the EU council as the germans, although their population is half that of Germany. Infact, I see Poland as one of the countries that is preventing the turning of the EU into a real democratic establishment, where the votes of every person will have the same value. Instead they insist on the indirect making of decisions, where it is a government's decision that matters, instead that of the people. Besides, the current EU model is really incapable of handling 25 states. Everything has to be decided by a consensus of votes, and it's hardly believable that the 25 different countries will all agree on any matter at hand. The increase of members coupled with the old system of making decisions has turned EU into a loose association once again. Therefore it is perfectly normal and acceptable that some countries who desire stronger integration are considering to form a core union.

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First of all, if anyone thinks it's only Americans who are puppets of the media, you need only look at the French example. I'm also as unsurprised to read this as anyone else.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono I have seen American media take the Iraqi *peoples* side on numerous occasions, not the Iraqi *governments* side. There is a subtle yet huge difference there.[quote] For the most part, during the war, it was only print media. [quote]It unfortunatly was the Iraqi people who have had to deal with the actions of "their" government throughout the past decades. Since the people of Iraq have had little say in the course of their "leaders," I do tend to empathize with the wrath they have had to bear. However, I find no reason to support the actions of, or sympathize with the government previously found in Iraq.

Same here. But, while we're on the subject of the media, I'd also like to see more of those chickenhawk reporters in the mainstream media discuss the past US involvement in Saddam's regime. Perhaps I'll get my wish when the big Saddam trial starts. :P

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How the French media could possibly could twist and distort the actions of the Saddam regime to support their anti-American sentiments is laughable and dispicable, in my opinion.[quote] Agreed. If you were consistent though, you'd also find Fox News' and MSNBC's jingoistic war coverage similarly "laughable and dispicable." CNN at least remained somewhat moderate during the war. The PBS news shows continued to present both sides, as they always have. [quote] It's good to know that France has totally forgot about World War II.

The fact that we saved their asses in WWII does not mean they have to agree with all of our policy decisions. Furthermore, most of the people who lived through, and remember, that era are probably now dead.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 I don't see what is wrong with creating the european superstate, or the Core Europe in the first place. If countries want to do so, there is no reason to stop them, especially since the majority of germans and french support the stronger EU. Now, as for poland, they are demanding to have almost the same amount of votes in the EU council as the germans, although their population is half that of Germany. Infact, I see Poland as one of the countries that is preventing the turning of the EU into a real democratic establishment, where the votes of every person will have the same value. Instead they insist on the indirect making of decisions, where it is a government's decision that matters, instead that of the people. Besides, the current EU model is really incapable of handling 25 states. Everything has to be decided by a consensus of votes, and it's hardly believable that the 25 different countries will all agree on any matter at hand. The increase of members coupled with the old system of making decisions has turned EU into a loose association once again. Therefore it is perfectly normal and acceptable that some countries who desire stronger integration are considering to form a core union.

Hey guess what you Europeans???? Welcome to the problems of founding a federalist union of "states"!!! The next time you bitch at concepts such as electoral colleges, the constant conflict between state rights vs. federal rights, and party divisions between whether more power should go locally to the states or centrally to the government, merely look at the nonexistence of an EU superstate (much less a constitution) as for why things are the way they are here.

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Last edited by occrider on Dec-31-2003 at 16:02

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Originally posted by occrider Hey guess what you Europeans???? Welcome to the problems of founding a federalist union of "states"!!! The next time you bitch at concepts such as electoral colleges, the constant conflict between state rights vs. federal rights, and party divisions between whether more power should go locally to the states or centrally to the government, merely look at the nonexistence of an EU superstate (much less a constitution) as for why things are the way they are here.

I do know why things are the way they are. Still, they are not the way they should be, so we have the right to complain about it. If it makes you happier, I admit that the current US system of government is much better than the EU one. But you're 250 years ahead on that matter, so you've definitely had more time to improve.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 we have the right to complain

I wonder why the founding fathers didn't include that in the bill of rights .

I mean it probably falls under the first admendment, but I think it's important enough to warrant an amendment dedicated to it alone.

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quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 I don't see what is wrong with creating the european superstate, or the Core Europe in the first place. If countries want to do so, there is no reason to stop them, especially since the majority of germans and french support the stronger EU. Now, as for poland, they are demanding to have almost the same amount of votes in the EU council as the germans, although their population is half that of Germany. Infact, I see Poland as one of the countries that is preventing the turning of the EU into a real democratic establishment, where the votes of every person will have the same value. Instead they insist on the indirect making of decisions, where it is a government's decision that matters, instead that of the people. Besides, the current EU model is really incapable of handling 25 states. Everything has to be decided by a consensus of votes, and it's hardly believable that the 25 different countries will all agree on any matter at hand. The increase of members coupled with the old system of making decisions has turned EU into a loose association once again. Therefore it is perfectly normal and acceptable that some countries who desire stronger integration are considering to form a core union.

Therefore we are not looking at a representation of democratic ideals and statutes, so much so as the big boys ala France, Germany, U.K will get their voices heard the loudest while the rest of the nations must tow in line with their agendas as deemed fit by them. Rember Mr. Chirac telling the Eastern Europeans that they missed a great opportunity to keep quiet when they signed a letter in support of America. If Europe wants to be led by France and Germany that is their position, I am in America. However where does the line between national interest and this allegiance to a European state exist. How can the voice of Malta, Estonia, Latvia and Luxembourg be heard against those of the larger nations. This concept of an E.U. represents to me idealism at its best once the realm of (politics) is entered into, however I realise that nationalism in Europe failed to bring security in the past, but rather wars. My problem with the concept of a Core Europe is that the democratic ideals of inclusion, representation and consensus on all important issues seem to be driven by French and German desires, unless you want to include Belgium and Luxembourg. A consensus must be reached with Poland and Spain. I can see no nation in Europe short of those that have proposed the concept of a Core Europe that would support such an idea. Maybe Europeans on this board can enlighten me as to the sentiments in their respective nations. Ireland is the next president of the European Union and Bertie Ahern has already said that he saw no way that Core Europe served the interest of Europe as a whole, that is the key it serves the interest of a few nations, not all current and future members with expansion coming soon.

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Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

i should've been a bit more precise... of course american media was on the the iraqi people side... so they can excuse the war on them.

let me rephrase myself.


with the hundred of radio and tv channels, and written media that there is in the US. How many were categoricaly against the war on Iraq?

if the american democratic media represented the Americans opinion, shouldn't there be a good proportion of media against the war? let say in the range of 25% of them. In reality, the real score was around 1% at most.

if you studied a bit of statistics you would know that its almost impossible to have a score of less than 1% of "antiwar coverage" when the population was divided anywhere from 25/75 to 50/50 with hundreds of media voices.

My statistic teacher would says that when you get these kind of numbers, the most probable explanation is that the game is rigged.

Rigged as in, unfree press because concentrated in very few hands and opinion direction is dictated by the owners.


if we get back to the France issue, 85% minimum of the French people were against the war.

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