Become a part of the TranceAddict community!Frequently Asked Questions - Please read this if you haven'tSearch the forums
TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Will deficits ever matter to the Bushites?
Pages (3): [1] 2 3 »   Last Thread   Next Thread
Share
Author
Thread    Post A Reply
MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City
Will deficits ever matter to the Bushites?

I've come to believe that Bush is not a true Conservative. I fail to understand how any Conservative can approve of his monumentally huge budget spending while cutting taxes at the same time, especially during a huge deficit crisis. Do deficits matter whatsoever to Bush? How in the hell can his tax cuts and spending policies cut the deficit in 1/2? What kind of accounting schemes does he utilize? Do they come from Anderson Consulting?

Do the Bushites ever foresee anything long-term whatsoever?

quote:
January 6, 2004
New York Times
OP-ED COLUMNIST
Rubin Gets Shrill
By PAUL KRUGMAN

rgentina retained the confidence of international investors almost to the end of the 1990's. Analysts shrugged off its large budget and trade deficits; business-friendly, free-market policies would, they insisted, allow the country to grow out of all that. But when confidence collapsed, that optimism proved foolish. Argentina, once a showpiece for the new world order, quickly became a byword for economic catastrophe.

So what? Those of us who have suggested that the irresponsibility of recent American policy may produce a similar disaster have been dismissed as shrill, even hysterical. (Hey, the market's up, isn't it?) But few would describe Robert Rubin, the legendary former Treasury secretary, as hysterical: his ability to stay calm in the face of crises, and reassure the markets, was his greatest asset. And Mr. Rubin has formally joined the coalition of the shrill.

In a paper presented over the weekend at the meeting of the American Economic Association, Mr. Rubin and his co-authors — Peter Orszag of the Brookings Institution and Allan Sinai of Decision Economics — argue along lines that will be familiar to regular readers of this column. The United States, they point out, is currently running very large budget and trade deficits. Official projections that this deficit will decline over time aren't based on "credible assumptions." Realistic projections show a huge buildup of debt over the next decade, which will accelerate once the baby boomers retire in large numbers.

All of this is conventional stuff, if anathema to administration apologists, who insist, in flat defiance of the facts, that they have a "plan" to cut the deficit in half. What's new is what Mr. Rubin and his co-authors say about the consequences. Rather than focusing on the gradual harm inflicted by deficits, they highlight the potential for catastrophe.

"Substantial ongoing deficits," they warn, "may severely and adversely affect expectations and confidence, which in turn can generate a self-reinforcing negative cycle among the underlying fiscal deficit, financial markets, and the real economy. . . . The potential costs and fallout from such fiscal and financial disarray provide perhaps the strongest motivation for avoiding substantial, ongoing budget deficits." In other words, do cry for us, Argentina: we may be heading down the same road.

Lest readers think that the most celebrated Treasury secretary since Alexander Hamilton has flipped his lid, the paper rather mischievously quotes at length from an earlier paper by Laurence Ball and N. Gregory Mankiw, who make a similar point. Mr. Mankiw is now the chairman of the president's Council of Economic Advisers, a job that requires him to support his boss's policies, and reassure the public that the budget deficit produced by those policies is manageable and not really a problem.

But here's what he wrote back in 1995, at a time when the federal deficit was much smaller than it is today, and headed down, not up: the risk of a crisis of confidence "may be the most important reason for seeking to reduce budget deficits. . . . As countries increase their debt, they wander into unfamiliar territory in which hard landings may lurk. If policymakers are prudent, they will not take the chance of learning what hard landings in [advanced] countries are really like."

The point made by Mr. Rubin now, and by Mr. Mankiw when he was a free agent, is that the traditional immunity of advanced countries like America to third-world-style financial crises isn't a birthright. Financial markets give us the benefit of the doubt only because they believe in our political maturity — in the willingness of our leaders to do what is necessary to rein in deficits, paying a political cost if necessary. And in the past that belief has been justified. Even Ronald Reagan raised taxes when the budget deficit soared.

But do we still have that kind of maturity? Here's the opening sentence of a recent New York Times article on the administration's budget plans: "Facing a record budget deficit, Bush administration officials say they have drafted an election-year budget that will rein in the growth of domestic spending without alienating politically influential constituencies." Needless to say, the proposed spending cuts — focused only on the powerless — are both cruel and trivial.

If this kind of fecklessness goes on, investors will eventually conclude that America has turned into a third world country, and start to treat it like one. And the results for the U.S. economy won't be pretty.

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/06/opinion/06KRUG.html


___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Old Post Jan-06-2004 19:51  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for MisterOpus1 Click here to Send MisterOpus1 a Private Message Add MisterOpus1 to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
NYCTrancefan
Destination Everywhere!



Registered: Jul 2003
Location: New York City in a Café del Mar mood
Re: Will deficits ever matter to the Bushites?

quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
If this kind of fecklessness goes on, investors will eventually conclude that America has turned into a third world country, and start to treat it like one. And the results for the U.S. economy won't be pretty.





Sorry couldn't help myself on this one. Not to mention our GDP and economic growth rate is third world too.


___________________
Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

Old Post Jan-06-2004 19:57  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for NYCTrancefan Click here to Send NYCTrancefan a Private Message Visit NYCTrancefan's homepage! Add NYCTrancefan to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York
Re: Will deficits ever matter to the Bushites?

quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
I've come to believe that Bush is not a true Conservative. I fail to understand how any Conservative can approve of his monumentally huge budget spending while cutting taxes at the same time, especially during a huge deficit crisis. Do deficits matter whatsoever to Bush? How in the hell can his tax cuts and spending policies cut the deficit in 1/2? What kind of accounting schemes does he utilize? Do they come from Anderson Consulting?

Do the Bushites ever foresee anything long-term whatsoever?


You've just come to this realisation now? Bush has not vetoed ANY spending bill in his 3 years of presidancy. The government has actually doubled in size I believe. US involvment in world affairs and nation building has catapulted to monumental proportions. I've long been saying that Bush is more of a democrat than any of the democrats ... makes me wonder why some of you even want him out of office.

btw, what's a bushite? Does this mean I'm a Clarkite and Renegade is a Deanite?


___________________
Retro ...

Old Post Jan-06-2004 20:24  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for occrider Click here to Send occrider a Private Message Add occrider to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
NYCTrancefan
Destination Everywhere!



Registered: Jul 2003
Location: New York City in a Café del Mar mood

Interesting Occ, I have often felt that the U.S. needs less involvement in world affairs, leave the Koreans, Chinese and Japanese to deal with each others issues over North Korea, too late for Iraq now however and maintain focus on America and its domestic policies, enough of this world police mumbo jumbo, they'll do just fine without us, after all we're not welcomed. Isolationism I say.


___________________
Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

Old Post Jan-06-2004 20:29  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for NYCTrancefan Click here to Send NYCTrancefan a Private Message Visit NYCTrancefan's homepage! Add NYCTrancefan to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City
Re: Re: Will deficits ever matter to the Bushites?

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
You've just come to this realisation now? Bush has not vetoed ANY spending bill in his 3 years of presidancy. The government has actually doubled in size I believe. US involvment in world affairs and nation building has catapulted to monumental proportions. I've long been saying that Bush is more of a democrat than any of the democrats ... makes me wonder why some of you even want him out of office.

btw, what's a bushite? Does this mean I'm a Clarkite and Renegade is a Deanite?


Bushites, Bushies, Bushists, hell I don't know! What else should I call the Bush apologists?

And hey, some of us Progressives just happen to believe in a little belt tightening when it comes to budget spending. Strange thing that Clinton actually did this to a certain degree? Does that make us "fiscally liberal"?


___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Old Post Jan-06-2004 20:37  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for MisterOpus1 Click here to Send MisterOpus1 a Private Message Add MisterOpus1 to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York
Re: Re: Re: Will deficits ever matter to the Bushites?

quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Bushites, Bushies, Bushists, hell I don't know! What else should I call the Bush apologists?


How about : High ArchPopes of the Winged Martian Death Elephants?

quote:

And hey, some of us Progressives just happen to believe in a little belt tightening when it comes to budget spending. Strange thing that Clinton actually did this to a certain degree? Does that make us "fiscally liberal"?


Well, ever since the two parties switched sides some time in the year 2001 I'm not really sure what policies are associated with the "liberal" and "conservative" taglines anymore.


___________________
Retro ...

Old Post Jan-06-2004 21:14  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for occrider Click here to Send occrider a Private Message Add occrider to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
rupert
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2001
Location: bris vegas

quote:
Do the Bushites ever foresee anything long-term whatsoever?


Maybe, the President doesnt but the research has already been done on the long term budget projections.

http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=4916&sequence=0

It presents a number of scenarios, unfortunately for the USA the scenario which is most likely to occur lower taxes and increased spending is in the Budget Offices forecasts is the worst outcome.

The United States is a banana republic in the making.

Personally I think that the policies are absolutely deliberate. They hate government spending which acts to redistribute wealth such as Medicare and welfare payments but they cant go out and deliberately cut them up front. The goal is to "make government so small you can drown it in the bathtub"

So they cut taxes and boost spending to lead to a crisis down the track. In the Reagan era they did the same thing, they dramatically increased government spending as a percentage of GDP and then in the 90's they suddenly had a change of heart, we have to balance the budget, show the markets we are fiscally responsible so Clinton "reformed" the welfare system. But they didnt go anywhere near far enough. The USA government had the benefit of the stock market bubble in the 90's which boosted asset prices and led to big gains from capital gains tax by the government. The balanced budgets of the Clinton era were largely illusory.

Eventually the market just isnt going to buy the US story anymore and will stop buying US debt. This will force the government to cut spending again on the big ticket items of the budget welfare and health payments.

Deficit spending is just another form of class warfare.

Old Post Jan-07-2004 10:50  Australia
Click Here to See the Profile for rupert Click here to Send rupert a Private Message Add rupert to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
NeoPhono
Übermensch



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: In Orbit

I'll tell ya how to redistribute the wealth...get a job ya lazy bum.

Don't even get me started on the "redistribute wealth" topic. That one really pisses me off.

Old Post Jan-07-2004 13:24  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for NeoPhono Click here to Send NeoPhono a Private Message Visit NeoPhono's homepage! Add NeoPhono to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
NYCTrancefan
Destination Everywhere!



Registered: Jul 2003
Location: New York City in a Café del Mar mood

quote:
Originally posted by NeoPhono
I'll tell ya how to redistribute the wealth...get a job ya lazy bum.

Don't even get me started on the "redistribute wealth" topic. That one really pisses me off.


Thank you very much NeoPhono, I always laugh when I hear this redistribute the wealth garbage, I immigrated to America and don't expect handouts from the government to try and live on. Imagine America doing what Sweden, Germany, France does with their welfare policies. No wonder today in Germany for example they are intrdoucing a bunch of reforms to the current system, meanwhile in France people protest everyday because they don't want cuts in their social benefits if they're unemployed over a long period of time. The U.S. introducing such generous policies with its population size would surely have innumerable issues. No to a Welfare State I say.


___________________
Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

Old Post Jan-07-2004 17:20  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for NYCTrancefan Click here to Send NYCTrancefan a Private Message Visit NYCTrancefan's homepage! Add NYCTrancefan to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
NeoPhono
Übermensch



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: In Orbit

NYCTranceFan...it's nice to see another sane soul on here.

Old Post Jan-07-2004 20:48  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for NeoPhono Click here to Send NeoPhono a Private Message Visit NeoPhono's homepage! Add NeoPhono to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
rupert
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2001
Location: bris vegas

quote:
I'll tell ya how to redistribute the wealth...get a job ya lazy bum.


You dont know me. You dont know anything about me.

Did you even read the paper of the Congressional Budget Office that provided before making a personal attack?

The research is right there.

Deficit spending is class warfare, it is also a tax on the future.

And as the research clearly points out the USA has been living beyond its means for a long term, but its ability to mortgage its future has its limits.

Eventually foreigners will get sick of buying the US assets used to pay for the debt and then what, is the government going to cut spending on the military, it will have to cut spending on the other big ticket items Health and Welfare. It is only a matter of time. The markets will demand it.

DO you want to know what your country is going to look like in a few years time? Try Brazil, a small group of rich people and a vast mass of poor people forever lurching from one debt crisis to the next. The USA will have no manufacturing base left and no service sector, it will all be in China and India which means an ever decreasing tax payer base.

And if the Congressional Budget Office research isnt enough, well perhaps the IMF has a view about what is going to happen as a result of the budget deficit:

http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7BB9E4ADB0%2D6CE3%2D4955%2D950F%2D5EF0159887FA%7D&siteid=mktw

Last edited by rupert on Jan-08-2004 at 09:32

Old Post Jan-08-2004 09:03  Australia
Click Here to See the Profile for rupert Click here to Send rupert a Private Message Add rupert to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
NeoPhono
Übermensch



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: In Orbit

1) The first line of my reply was a joke.

2) Deficit spending is bad.

3) Governement sanctioned "wealth distribution" is bad.

4) The US will not "turn into another Brazil."

5) The IMF is corrupt, and hurts more countries than it helps.

Old Post Jan-08-2004 14:00  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for NeoPhono Click here to Send NeoPhono a Private Message Visit NeoPhono's homepage! Add NeoPhono to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message

TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Will deficits ever matter to the Bushites?
Post New Thread    Post A Reply

Pages (3): [1] 2 3 »  
Last Thread   Next Thread
Click here to listen to the sample!Pause playbackSasha track from videos @ www.venue-athens.com [2005] [0]

Click here to listen to the sample!Pause playbackDigitalism - Zdarlight [2005]

Show Printable Version | Subscribe to this Thread
Forum Jump:

All times are GMT. The time now is 20:57.

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
[IMG] code is ON
 
Search this Thread:

 
Contact Us - return to tranceaddict

Powered by: Trance Music & vBulletin Forums
Copyright ©2000-2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Privacy Statement / DMCA
Support TA!