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Shakka
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Registered: Feb 2003
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Wesley Clark --D'OH!

How do you like him now? This should be entertaining. Just a Clinton puppett.

http://www.drudgereport.com/mattwc.htm

quote:
XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX WED JAN 15, 2004 11:28:25 ET XXXXX

WES CLARK MADE CASE FOR IRAQ WAR BEFORE CONGRESS; TRANSCRIPT REVEALED

**World Exclusive**

Two months ago Democratic hopeful Wesley Clark declared in a debate that he has always been firmly against the current Iraq War.

"I've been very consistent... I've been against this war from the beginning," the former general said in Detroit on October 26.

"I was against it last summer, I was against it in the fall, I was against it in the winter, I was against it in the spring. And I'm against it now."

But just six month prior in an op-ed in the LONDON TIMES Clark offered praise for the courage of President Bush's action.

"President Bush and Tony Blair should be proud of their resolve in the face of so much doubt," Clark wrote on April 10, 2003. "Can anything be more moving than the joyous throngs swarming the streets of Baghdad? Memories of the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the defeat of Milosevic in Belgrade flood back. Statues and images of Saddam are smashed and defiled."

MORE

Even the most ardent Clark supporter will question if Clark's current and past stand on the Iraq war -- is confusion or deception, after the DRUDGE REPORT reveals:

TWO WEEKS BEFORE CONGRESS PASSED THE IRAQ CONGRESSIONAL RESOLUTION WESLEY CLARK MADE THE CASE FOR WAR; TESTIFIED THAT SADDAM HAD 'CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS'

Less than 18 months ago, Wesley Clark offered his testimony before the Committee On Armed Services at the U.S. House Of Representatives.

"There's no requirement to have any doctrine here. I mean this is simply a longstanding right of the United States and other nations to take the actions they deem necessary in their self defense," Clark told Congress on September 26, 2002.

"Every president has deployed forces as necessary to take action. He's done so without multilateral support if necessary. He's done so in advance of conflict if necessary. In my experience, I was the commander of the European forces in NATO. When we took action in Kosovo, we did not have United Nations approval to do this and we did so in a way that was designed to preempt Serb ethnic cleansing and regional destabilization there. There were some people who didn' t agree with that decision. The United Nations was not able to agree to support it with a resolution."

Clark continued: "There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat... Yes, he has chemical and biological weapons. He's had those for a long time. But the United States right now is on a very much different defensive posture than we were before September 11th of 2001... He is, as far as we know, actively pursuing nuclear capabilities, though he doesn't have nuclear warheads yet. If he were to acquire nuclear weapons, I think our friends in the region would face greatly increased risks as would we."

More Clark: "And, I want to underscore that I think the United States should not categorize this action as preemptive. Preemptive and that doctrine has nothing whatsoever to do with this problem. As Richard Perle so eloquently pointed out, this is a problem that's longstanding. It's been a decade in the making. It needs to be dealt with and the clock is ticking on this."

Clark explained: "I think there's no question that, even though we may not have the evidence as Richard [Perle] says, that there have been such contacts [between Iraq and al Qaeda]. It' s normal. It's natural. These are a lot of bad actors in the same region together. They are going to bump into each other. They are going to exchange information. They're going to feel each other out and see whether there are opportunities to cooperate. That's inevitable in this region, and I think it's clear that regardless of whether or not such evidence is produced of these connections that Saddam Hussein is a threat."

Old Post Jan-15-2004 17:10  United States
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imokruok
Lawyers, guns, and money



Registered: Aug 2003
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Stuff like this comes out on Clark all of the time, and I think it's pretty funny. Until this guy wanted to run for President, he could have been mistaken for a pretty decent Republican.


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Old Post Jan-15-2004 18:05  United States
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Shakka
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Correction--I'm pretty certain he WAS a Republican prior to deciding to run.

Old Post Jan-15-2004 18:12  United States
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occrider
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The full Clark article:

quote:

What Must Be Done to Complete a Great Victory
by General Wesley Clark

Can anything be more moving than the joyous throngs swarming the streets of Baghdad? Memories of the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the defeat of Milosevic in Belgrade flood back. Statues and images of Saddam are smashed and defiled. Liberation is at hand. Liberation — the powerful balm that justifies painful sacrifice, erases lingering doubt and reinforces bold actions. Already the scent of victory is in the air. Yet a bit more work and some careful reckoning need to be done before we take our triumph.

In the first place, the final military success needs to be assured. Whatever caused the sudden collapse in Iraq, there are still reports of resistance in Baghdad. The regime’s last defenders may fade away, but likely not without a fight. And to the north, the cities of Tikrit, Kirkuk and Mosul are still occupied by forces that once were loyal to the regime. It may take some armed persuasion for them to lay down their arms. And finally, the Baath party and other security services remain to be identified and disarmed.

Then there’s the matter of returning order and security. The looting has to be stopped. The institutions of order have been shattered. And there are scant few American and British forces to maintain order, resolve disputes and prevent the kind of revenge killings that always mark the fall of autocratic regimes. The interim US commander must quickly deliver humanitarian relief and re-establish government for a country of 24 million people the size of California. Already, the acrimony has begun between the Iraqi exile groups, the US and Britain, and local people.

Still, the immediate tasks at hand in Iraq cannot obscure the significance of the moment. The regime seems to have collapsed — the primary military objective — and with that accomplished, the defense ministers and generals, soldiers and airmen should take pride. American and Brits, working together, produced a lean plan, using only about a third of the ground combat power of the Gulf War. If the alternative to attacking in March with the equivalent of four divisions was to wait until late April to attack with five, they certainly made the right call.


But no one ever won a war or a battle with a plan. Every soldier knows there are only two kinds of plans: plans that might work and plans that won’t work. The art of war is to take a plan that might work and then drive it to success. This, General Tommy Franks and his team did very well indeed.

Everyone who has ever served knows that battles are won at the bottom — by the men and women looking through the sights, pulling the triggers, loading the cannon and fixing the planes. The generals can lose battles, and they can set the conditions for success — but they can’t win. That’s done by the troops alone. And nothing could have been more revealing than those armored fights in which a handful of US tanks wiped out a score of opposing Iraqi armored vehicles, again and again, and usually without suffering any losses, while in the south, the British troops worked their way through the suburbs of Basra with skills born of sound training and firm discipline, minimizing friendly casualties, civilian losses and destruction.

It’s to the men and women who fought it out on the arid highways, teeming city streets and crowded skies that we owe the greatest gratitude. All volunteers, they risked their lives as free men and women, because they believed in their countries and answered their calls. They left families and friends behind for a mission uncertain. They didn’t do it for the glory or the pittance of combat pay. Sadly, some won’t return — and they, most of all, need to be honored and remembered.

As for the diplomacy, the best that can be said is that strong convictions often carry a high price. Despite the virtually tireless energy of their Foreign Offices, Britain and the US have probably never been so isolated in recent times. Diplomacy got us into this campaign but didn’t pull together the kind of unity of purpose that marked the first Gulf War. Relationships, institutions and issues have virtually all been mortgaged to success in changing the regime in Baghdad. And in the Islamic world the war has been seen in a far different light than in the US and Britain. Much of the world saw this as a war of aggression. They were stunned by the implacable determination to use force, as well as by the sudden and lopsided outcome.

Now the bills must be paid, amid the hostile image created in many areas by the allied action. Surely the balm of military success will impact on the diplomacy to come — effective power so clearly displayed always shocks and stuns. Many Gulf states will hustle to praise their liberation from a sense of insecurity they were previously loath even to express. Egypt and Saudi Arabia will move slightly but perceptibly towards Western standards of human rights.

Germany has already swung round from opposition to the war to approval. France will look for a way to bridge the chasm of understanding that has ripped at the EU. Russia will have to craft a new way forward, detouring away, at least temporarily, from the reflexive anti-Americanism which infects the power ministries. And North Korea will shudder, for it has seen on display an even more awesome display of power than it anticipated, and yet it will remain resolute in seeking leverage to assure its own regime’s survival. And what it produces, it sells.

The real questions revolve around two issues: the War on Terror and the Arab-Israeli dispute. And these questions are still quite open. Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah and others will strive to mobilize their recruiting to offset the Arab defeat in Baghdad. Whether they will succeed depends partly on whether what seems to be an intense surge of joy travels uncontaminated elsewhere in the Arab world. And it also depends on the dexterity of the occupation effort. This could emerge as a lasting humiliation of Iraq or a bridge of understanding between Islam and the West.

But the operation in Iraq will also serve as a launching pad for further diplomatic overtures, pressures and even military actions against others in the region who have supported terrorism and garnered weapons of mass destruction. Don’t look for stability as a Western goal. Governments in Syria and Iran will be put on notice — indeed, may have been already — that they are “next” if they fail to comply with Washington’s concerns.

And there will be more jostling over the substance and timing of new peace initiatives for Israel and the Palestinians. Whatever the brief prewar announcement about the “road map”, this issue is far from settled in Washington, and is unlikely to achieve any real momentum until the threats to Israel’s northern borders are resolved. And that is an added pressure to lean on Bashir Assad and the ayatollahs in Iran.

As for the political leaders themselves, President Bush and Tony Blair should be proud of their resolve in the face of so much doubt. And especially Mr Blair, who skillfully managed tough internal politics, an incredibly powerful and sometimes almost irrationally resolute ally, and concerns within Europe. Their opponents, those who questioned the necessity or wisdom of the operation, are temporarily silent, but probably unconvinced. And more tough questions remain to be answered.

Is this victory? Certainly the soldiers and generals can claim success. And surely, for the Iraqis there is a new-found sense of freedom. But remember, this was all about weapons of mass destruction. They haven’t yet been found. It was to continue the struggle against terror, bring democracy to Iraq, and create change, positive change, in the Middle East. And none of that is begun, much less completed.

Let’s have those parades on the Mall and down Constitution Avenue — but don’t demobilize yet. There’s a lot yet to be done, and not only by the diplomats.


Time magazine October 14, 2002:

quote:

"President Bush was right to carry the problem of Iraq to the United Nations. And he is right to stay with the diplomatic process, as we seek to sway international opinion to our side. . . . Moreover . . . we must do everything possible to prepare for some unpleasant possibilities. . . . After Saddam's government collapses, are we prepared to maintain order and prevent mayhem? Wouldn't we be wiser to arrange for police support from other nations and international organizations? And if, as a result of conflict, Iraq's economy collapses, wouldn't we like to have international organizations ready to assist in nation building?"


CNN, 2/5/03:
quote:

"The credibility of the United States is on the line, and Saddam Hussein has these weapons and so, you know, we're going to go ahead and do this and the rest of the world's got to get with us.... The U.N. has got to come in and belly up to the bar on this. But the president of the United States has put his credibility on the line, too. And so this is the time that these nations around the world, and the United Nations, are going to have to look at this evidence and decide who they line up with."


I guess this is what happens when you trust the credibility of the current president of the united states . It's not like Clark has access to NSA/CIA documents that accurately depicted the state of being (or lack of info thereof) of Iraq's WMD program that Bush had.

quote:

Stuff like this comes out on Clark all of the time, and I think it's pretty funny. Until this guy wanted to run for President, he could have been mistaken for a pretty decent Republican.

Clark has voted for republicans and democrats in the past. He doesn't blindly tout the party line as so many do today.

Old Post Jan-15-2004 18:31  United States
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Shakka
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Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:
Originally posted by occrider
I guess this is what happens when you trust the credibility of the current president of the united states . It's not like Clark has access to NSA/CIA documents that accurately depicted the state of being (or lack of info thereof) of Iraq's WMD program that Bush had.


Maybe not, Occ, but as a General in the U.S. Army and commander of NATO forces, I can assure you he had access to plenty of classified documents and other information. Enough that this type of flip-flop campaigning should not have happened to him if there weren't something suspicious going on behind the scenes.

I would be more inclined to be somewhat forgiving if it was someone clueless like Carol Mosely Braun or Al Sharpton getting caught in a slip up like this, but you've got to admit Clark is in a position where his credibility has lost some lustre by this development.

Old Post Jan-15-2004 18:39  United States
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occrider
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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
Maybe not, Occ, but as a General in the U.S. Army and commander of NATO forces, I can assure you he had access to plenty of classified documents and other information. Enough that this type of flip-flop campaigning should not have happened to him if there weren't something suspicious going on behind the scenes.

I would be more inclined to be somewhat forgiving if it was someone clueless like Carol Mosely Braun or Al Sharpton getting caught in a slip up like this, but you've got to admit Clark is in a position where his credibility has lost some lustre by this development.


The man retired almost 3 and a half years ago. Are you saying that the primary evidence Bush relied upon to invade Iraq dated back to that period? Or are you saying that we have huge intelligence leaks throughout our entire system of government such that every former high level official has access to the same up-to-the-minute intelligence that the president of the United States has?

Old Post Jan-15-2004 18:47  United States
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NYCTrancefan
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Registered: Jul 2003
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Say what we may of Clark but he wasn't the Commander in Chief that executed the order for the Armed Forces to go into Iraq so no one can know exactly how he would have made his decision or if his agenda would have been one to invade Iraq under such circumstances. Remember that Bush has a group of "neocons" that greatly influenced his thinking.


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Old Post Jan-15-2004 18:51  United States
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Shakka
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Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:
Originally posted by occrider
The man retired almost 3 and a half years ago. Are you saying that the primary evidence Bush relied upon to invade Iraq dated back to that period? Or are you saying that we have huge intelligence leaks throughout our entire system of government such that every former high level official has access to the same up-to-the-minute intelligence that the president of the United States has?


For starters, he didn't retire, he was fired for character issues.

A lot of the evidence Bush relied on dates back into the Clinton administration, as well as into Bush I's administration. The original UN resolutions that created the clusterfuck that eventually resulted in 1441 were drafted years before Dubya took office.

I'm not saying we have huge intelligence leaks, but Generals don't just lose all of their contacts and information sources when they leave the Army. I'd still consider him an insider. In the very least I am sure he has a multitude of inside contacts in the military that he can get information from. I'm not trying to imply intelligence leakage, but I'm sure he has better sources than you or I.

Old Post Jan-15-2004 18:55  United States
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Shakka
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quote:
Originally posted by NYCTrancefan
Say what we may of Clark but he wasn't the Commander in Chief that executed the order for the Armed Forces to go into Iraq so no one can know exactly how he would have made his decision or if his agenda would have been one to invade Iraq under such circumstances. Remember that Bush has a group of "neocons" that greatly influenced his thinking.


And Congress authorized it. The U.S. isn't a dictatorship, though many on this board like to compare it to one.

Old Post Jan-15-2004 18:58  United States
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occrider
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Registered: Oct 2000
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quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
For starters, he didn't retire, he was fired for character issues.

A lot of the evidence Bush relied on dates back into the Clinton administration, as well as into Bush I's administration. The original UN resolutions that created the clusterfuck that eventually resulted in 1441 were drafted years before Dubya took office.

I'm not saying we have huge intelligence leaks, but Generals don't just lose all of their contacts and information sources when they leave the Army. I'd still consider him an insider. In the very least I am sure he has a multitude of inside contacts in the military that he can get information from. I'm not trying to imply intelligence leakage, but I'm sure he has better sources than you or I.


Supposedly he was fired for disagreements and issues with the then Defense Secretary Cohen. And it's possibly true he is still more of an insider than you or I. But I would wager that the majority of his contacts are within the military rather than direct links to the CIA or NSA for raw data. At any rate, we can hypothetically guess that his insider contact is God and therefore he should have known everything however it's all conjecture. Truth of the matter is, we have no clue what kind of contacts he has and what kind of information he gets.

Old Post Jan-15-2004 19:39  United States
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Shakka
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Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Supposedly he was fired for disagreements and issues with the then Defense Secretary Cohen. And it's possibly true he is still more of an insider than you or I. But I would wager that the majority of his contacts are within the military rather than direct links to the CIA or NSA for raw data. At any rate, we can hypothetically guess that his insider contact is God and therefore he should have known everything however it's all conjecture. Truth of the matter is, we have no clue what kind of contacts he has and what kind of information he gets.


I can concede that. But it's not as if he was flying blind. Next year's race just keeps getting more and more interesting. Funny how the older one gets, the more interesting politics becomes. I can't decide if I would've been happier had I majored in Poly-Sci vs. Economics!

Old Post Jan-15-2004 20:14  United States
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LiquidX
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Registered: Mar 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
And Congress authorized it. The U.S. isn't a dictatorship, though many on this board like to compare it to one.


LoL!! No No No.. just the president.


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Old Post Jan-15-2004 21:45  Chile
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