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LiquidX
It's All OvA!



Registered: Mar 2001
Location: In Ur Mind
HappyHappy It Was Never about a Smoking Gun by David Kay.( So much about Bush and its WMD mm )

ok.... so what does this mean??


quote:
"It Was Never About a Smoking Gun,"
by David Kay
Date: January 19, 2003

The following article by former United Nations weapons inspector David Kay first appeared in The Washington Post January 19. Permission has been granted for distribution and further republication, in English and in translation abroad and in the local press outside the United States.

Below is the byliner:

It Was Never About A Smoking Gun

By David Kay

(David Kay is a senior fellow at the Potomac Institute for Policy Studies. In 1991, he served as chief nuclear weapons inspector of UNSCOM, the U.N. Special Commission on Iraq.)

When it comes to the U.N. weapons inspection in Iraq, looking for a smoking gun is a fool's mission. That was true 11 years ago when I led the inspections there. It is no less true today -- even after the seemingly important discovery on Thursday of a dozen empty short-range missile warheads left over from the 1980s.

The only job the inspectors can expect to accomplish is confirming whether Iraq has voluntarily disarmed. That is not a task that need take months more. And last week's cache is irrelevant in answering that question, regardless of the U.N.'s final determination. That's because the answer is already clear: Iraqi is in breach of U.N. demands that it dismantle its weapons of mass destruction.

I am no apologist for the Iraqis, but not only are those warheads irrelevant to the larger argument, they could well be remnants that were overlooked, found as they were in a 25 square mile site that has a huge number of conventional warheads and rockets on it, rockets used principally in the Iran/Iraq war. The discovery was small -- the kind of thing inspectors often find -- and there's not much to be made of the warheads unless the testing shows they were once filled with VX gas.

The real problem lies with the way the searches are being conducted, period. The fact that day after day, the inspectors go to sites, most of which were inspected in the 1990s and put under long-term monitoring, has served Iraq's claims that it is complying with the inspections. It also ensures that these non-threatening inspections will continue for some time. Hans Blix, the chief U.N. weapons inspector, said last week that his required Jan. 27 report (stating whether Baghdad is fully complying with U.N. demands to disclose and dismantle any weapons of mass destruction program) will simply be an interim one. It will mark, Blix said, "the beginning of the inspection and monitoring process, not the end of it." That statement no doubt came as a surprise in Washington: Many members of the Bush administration have told me they were expecting the report to provide the basis for Security Council endorsement of military action to compel Baghdad to disarm. Blix appears to be drawing a very different conclusion: In the face of Iraq's denials that it has weapons, the inspections must continue.

What Blix and Mohamed ElBaradei, director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), are not doing is even more damning. Recall that Iraq was required to submit a "full and complete declaration" of all its weapons programs to the U.N. Security Council early last December. But that 12,000-page declaration was hardly complete, and its omissions (as well as gaps identified in 1998 -- more about that in a moment) should have become the focus of the inspections process.

UNMOVIC, the U.N. Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission, should use its limited resources to examine the seven gaps in the United Nations' knowledge and understanding of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, which were identified in 1998 by UNSCOM (the now defunct U.N. Special Commission) and an independent technical evaluation group. The gaps were alarming. They had to do with such things as anthrax, artillery shells filled with mustard gas, mobile biological weapons agent facilities and efforts to procure uranium.

By failing to address these concerns, Iraq mocked the United Nations with its declaration. It rejected what the Security Council, in Resolution 1441, insisted it must do -- that is, answer all outstanding questions about the program. And it had the gall to contend that it hasn't had a prohibited weapons program since the end of the Gulf War.

How quickly the experience of the first attempt to disarm Iraq by international inspections has been forgotten. That attempt, starting in 1991, also began with weapons declarations filled with lies and misstatements. As a result, the UNSCOM team I led was also forced to search for a smoking gun. It is a nearly impossible task, which is why it should never be the standard of mission success. Only two smoking guns were found during all the UNSCOM inspections in Iraq in the 1990s. The first -- Iraq's nuclear weapons complex -- came quickly in the summer and autumn of 1991. We were going after very large physical complexes that had been designed to deceive spy satellites -- but whose purpose could be detected by inspectors armed with good intelligence and aided by key Iraqi defectors.

In the next six years of UNSCOM inspections only one other such discovery was made -- when the existence of an Iraqi biological weapons program was finally uncovered in 1995. But it is often forgotten that the weapons themselves were not found by the inspectors. Iraq told the inspectors that it had destroyed the biological munitions, which, it said, had been stored inside abandoned railroad tunnels and buried along the runways at two military airfields. Even the best inspectors have almost no chance of discovering hidden weapons sites such as these in a country the size of Iraq.

We UNSCOM inspectors simply did not have the resources to win a game of hide and seek. The same is true today. The number of inspectors was always terribly small -- seldom more than 300 in the country at any one time. And we were totally outclassed by Iraqi security, which had managed to infiltrate the United Nations in Vienna and New York, as well as the Bahrain office of UNSCOM. In late 1991, when we seized more than 100,000 pages of information on Iraq's nuclear weapons program, we found one particularly surprising document. In it, the head of Iraqi security warned the chief security official of the facility holding the documents that in 10 days I would be leading a team to search his building and he should remove all sensitive material from this facility. The document was dated less than 48 hours after the decision had been made that I would lead this team! At the time fewer than 10 people in the United Nations and IAEA knew about this mission.

Much has been made of the value of surprise inspections, but little has been said about how hard they are to conduct. Between 1991 and 1998, UNSCOM conducted almost 500 inspections. Of those, only about six truly surprised Iraq. Then as now, the inspectors operated in an environment that was thoroughly monitored by Iraq. Hotel rooms, restaurants, offices and cars were all bugged. We understood that only with the most extraordinary measures could any of our conversations or documents elude Iraqi security officials.

By 1996, UNSCOM and the IAEA had switched almost entirely from searching for specific weapons to trying to limit the ease with which Iraq could use its permitted dual-use facilities to produce them.

The former inspectors I know react with disbelief to the list of sites the current inspectors have visited in the past seven weeks -- Taji, Daura, Al Hakam, Fallujah, Tarmiya, Rashdiya, Al Furat, Al Muthanna. No one, they say, should have believed that Saddam would ever let inspectors back into the country without ensuring that these sites, well monitored by UNSCOM until it left in '98, were thoroughly sanitized. Let's not forget that UNSCOM was never denied entry to a site it was monitoring. Far from denial, Iraq wanted UNSCOM and the IAEA to concentrate on the monitored sites and stop searching for clandestine facilities.

How did the inspectors get back into a game of hide and seek with the Iraqis?

This time, the Bush administration was determined that, rather than a search and find mission, the inspections would verify Iraq's willingness to be disarmed. This would be completely unlike the long, frustrating game the Iraqis played and ultimately won with the first U.N. inspection regime. This was to be Iraq's last chance. Any "false statements or omissions" in its December declaration were, according to Resolution 1441, supposed to "constitute a further material breach of Iraq's obligations." And "material breach" is the Security Council's standard for measuring whether military force is required to compel disarmament.

Inspections were not supposed to begin until 15 days after the declaration was due, in other words on Dec. 21. Instead, and this has gone almost completely unremarked, Blix and ElBaradei began the inspections on Nov. 27, 11 days before Iraq was to submit its declaration. So much for President Bush's injunction that the inspectors were there to confirm Iraq's voluntary disarmament. Thus the hunt for the smoking gun was on. The United States did not object to this change of strategy. In fact, it urged Blix and ElBaradei to make their search more effective, use their full powers and find the smoking gun.

It is easy, if painful, to see how the United Nations slid back into the fool's game of trying to find a smoking gun inside a totalitarian country such as Iraq. What is much harder to understand is why the Bush administration, which so clearly seemed to have understood that this was not a game that they wanted to play or could win, let itself be trapped like this. But trapped it is.

Even such tantalizing discoveries as last week's should not be seen as a promise of more compelling evidence to come if we would only give the inspectors more time. The only evidence of Iraq's weapons program we need has been clear since early December, when it filed yet another weapons declaration that was anything but full, final and complete. Iraq continues to ignore its international obligations. Let's not give it more time to cheat and retreat.

(Distributed by the Office of International Information Programs, U.S. Department of State.)


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Last edited by LiquidX on Jan-22-2004 at 22:57

Old Post Jan-22-2004 21:18  Chile
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NYCTrancefan
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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: New York City in a Café del Mar mood

This is why I clearly stated that Bush has lost credibility on any claims of W.M.D against other nations. When the President of the U.S. speaks the World hears, and we all heard active biological and chemical programs and an interest in developing a nuclear program. Where are they or should we now bury our heads in the sand because 500+ troops are dead I placed a sense of trust in the word of this government and now feel betrayed by their policies as time developed. This claim from the Kay report comes as no surprise after all.


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Old Post Jan-22-2004 23:08  United States
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Shakka
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Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by NYCTrancefan
This is why I clearly stated that Bush has lost credibility on any claims of W.M.D against other nations. When the President of the U.S. speaks the World hears, and we all heard active biological and chemical programs and an interest in developing a nuclear program. Where are they or should we now bury our heads in the sand because 500+ troops are dead I placed a sense of trust in the word of this government and now feel betrayed by their policies as time developed. This claim from the Kay report comes as no surprise after all.


Do you actually know anyone who has died in the war?

Old Post Jan-23-2004 00:06  United States
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NYCTrancefan
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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: New York City in a Café del Mar mood

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
Do you actually know anyone who has died in the war?


I fail to understand how that has any impact or significance on my opinion about G.W. Bush and his administrations actions on Iraq and "imminent threats" posed by Iraqi WMDs. After all did you ever think that maybe, just maybe those troops who died in the War should not have been there in the very first place without an optimal reason for conflict. You seem to misunderstand my reasoning. I believed G.W. when he went to Iraq and leading up to it, what turned me virulently against him is that after the invasion came a lot of double speak out of the administration, all of a sudden WMDs the solid basis for the war as I believed no longer had credibility.

This has nothing to do with if I or you or anyone on this forum knew someone who died in the conflict or is serving now. I firmly support the efforts of our troops and their mission, after all they are already there. My question to you would be what do you believe those troops thought they were fighting for, first and foremost would be to protect America from Saddam's weapons that according to Bush and Co. threatened America, I doubt it was for Iraqi freedom, would you give your life for Iraqi freedom as the sole purpose Now this is what you hear out of our government, that it is about freedom. Freedom in the Mid East on the wings of the U.S. sacrifices in a region where the U.S. is scorned upon at every turn, ok.


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Last edited by NYCTrancefan on Jan-23-2004 at 00:56

Old Post Jan-23-2004 00:38  United States
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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by NYCTrancefan
This has nothing to do with if I or you or anyone on this forum knew someone who died in the conflict or is serving now. I firmly support the efforts of our troops and their mission, after all they are already there. My question to you would be what do you believe those troops thought they were fighting for, first and foremost would be to protect America from Saddam's weapons that according to Bush and Co. threatened America, I doubt it was for Iraqi freedom, would you give your life for Iraqi freedom as the sole purpose Now this is what you hear out of our government, that it is about freedom. Freedom in the Mid East on the wings of the U.S. sacrifices in a region where the U.S. is scorned upon at every turn, ok.


No offense, it's just the way you talk about it. You probably don't know a single person that's over there, yet you talk about them like it's your own family members dying. They are Americans, and that pisses me off when they die, but the Marines and Army folks that I talk to (and I have several friends over there, one of whom has now served 2 tours in the middle east) feel that it is an honor to serve. The military people who complain the most, IMHO are the ones who joined the military for the wrong reasons. They thought it was an easy way to get an education paid for or to do something else, but never thought that they might actually have to do what they signed up for. See how the military votes if you want to know how they feel about what we're doing.

Old Post Jan-23-2004 14:46  United States
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DaveSZ
When The Levee Breaks



Registered: Jan 2003
Location: ATX

quote:


Published on Friday, January 23, 2004 by Reuters
Ex-Arms Hunter Kay Says No WMD Stockpiles in Iraq
by Tabassum Zakaria

WASHINGTON - David Kay stepped down as leader of the U.S. hunt for banned weapons in Iraq on Friday and said he did not believe the country had any large stockpiles of chemical or biological weapons.

In a direct challenge to the Bush administration, which says its invasion of Iraq was justified by the presence of illicit arms, Kay told Reuters in a telephone interview he had concluded there were no Iraqi stockpiles to be found.

"I don't think they existed," Kay said. "What everyone was talking about is stockpiles produced after the end of the last (1991) Gulf War, and I don't think there was a large-scale production program in the nineties," he said.

The CIA announced earlier that former U.N. weapons inspector Charles Duelfer, who has previously expressed doubts that unconventional weapons would be found, would succeed Kay as Washington's chief arms hunter.

Kay said he believes most of what was going to be found in the search for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq has been found and that the hunt would become more difficult once America returned control of the country to the Iraqis.

The United States went to war against Baghdad last year citing a threat from Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. To date, no banned arms have been found.

In his annual State of the Union on Tuesday, President Bush insisted that former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein had actively pursued dangerous programs right up to the start of the U.S. attack in March.

Citing a report to Congress in October, Bush said Kay had found "dozens of weapons of mass destruction-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations."

"Had we failed to act," Bush said, "the dictator's weapons of mass destruction programs would continue to this day."

JURY STILL OUT

And on Wednesday, Vice President Dick Cheney said the United States had not given up on finding unconventional weapons in Iraq. "The jury is still out," he said in a radio interview.

Kay said he left the post due to a "complex set of issues. It related in part to a reduction in the resource and a change in focus of ISG," he said referring to the Iraq Survey Group, which is in charge of the weapons hunt.

ISG analysts were diverted from hunting for weapons of mass destruction to helping in the fight against the insurgency, Kay said.

"When I had started out I had made it a condition that ISG be exclusively focused on WMD, that's no longer so," he said.

"We're not going to find much after June. Once the Iraqis take complete control of the government it is just almost impossible to operate in the way that we operate," Kay said.

"I think we have found probably 85 percent of what we're going to find," he said. "I think the best evidence is that they did not resume large-scale production and that's what we're really talking about."

Kay said he was going back to the private sector.

In a statement announcing Kay's departure, CIA Director George Tenet praised Kay for his "extraordinary service under dangerous and difficult circumstances."

Duelfer, 51, a former deputy executive chairman of the U.N. Special Commission that was responsible for dismantling Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, had previously expressed doubts that unconventional weapons would be found.

"I think that Mr. Kay and his team have looked very hard. I think the reason that they haven't found them is they're probably not there," Duelfer told NBC television earlier this month.

But in a statement included in the CIA announcement, Duelfer, who will be based in Iraq and as CIA special adviser to direct the WMD search, said he was keeping an open mind.

"I'm approaching it with an open mind and am absolutely committed to following the evidence wherever it takes us," he said.

Copyright 2004 Reuters Ltd





quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
Do you actually know anyone who has died in the war?




He may not know anyone serving or dying, but I do.

If my cousin, a marine being redeployed for the second time, dies over there in Iraq, these are the "men" (and I use that term loosely) with the blood on their hands:




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Old Post Jan-25-2004 00:56 
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NYCTrancefan
Destination Everywhere!



Registered: Jul 2003
Location: New York City in a Café del Mar mood

You gotta love those two, not! This current admin. managed to turn me into a full blown liberal, forget about being moderate anymore. Never again would I trust their words, not that it matters to them but what a shame indeed when your own government can be so wrong about another nations weapons and the threat or lack thereof it poses as a means of war. There are the lives of many people at risk in this sham of a foreign policy when it comes to Iraq, too bad it wasn't just Bush, Rumsy, Chaney and Saddam, that way many would have been spared. Keep looking for those Weapons of Mass Invisibility it will eventually turn up.


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Old Post Jan-25-2004 01:14  United States
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LiquidX
It's All OvA!



Registered: Mar 2001
Location: In Ur Mind

Thank you Daveseanz, I was looking for that article. I found it on the Washington post, but since Im not a member I couldnt get it. I saw it in some other countries news web page this morning ( and it seem to be taking time to appear on the rest of US networks and pages ).. thanks for posting it. I think that that speaks 1000 words.


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Old Post Jan-25-2004 03:48  Chile
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