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PHALPAX
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Boston
Bush budget won't jump start economy says CBO

quote:

Office: Bush Budget Won't Jolt Economy
By ALAN FRAM, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - The tax cuts and other policies President Bush (news - web sites) proposed in his $2.4 trillion budget would probably have a minimal impact on the economy, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office (news - web sites) said Monday.



In its annual report on the president's budget, the agency that provides fiscal analysis for lawmakers said Bush's proposals could either increase or reduce economic output through 2009, and improve it in the following five years.


"However, the differences are likely to be small, affecting output by less than one-half of one percentage point on average," the study said.


The conclusion by the budget office comes in the early stages of Bush's re-election campaign, in which the core of his plan for strengthening the economy has been his call to make earlier tax cuts permanent. The economy and a dearth of job creation in his administration have emerged as major issues this election year.


Congress' Republican leaders have already decided to ignore Bush's proposal for permanent tax cuts this year because it would boost record federal deficits even higher and because they lack the votes to prevail.


The Senate on Monday began debating a $2.36 trillion GOP-written budget for 2005 that includes just some of the tax cuts Bush proposed, plus lower deficits and spending than his plan mapped. The House Budget Committee will debate a similar plan later this week.


The analysis attributed the budget's scant effect largely to the small size of the policies Bush proposed compared with the $12 trillion-a-year U.S. economy. For example, its proposed tax cuts would total only 0.3 percent the size of the economy over the next five years and its spending cuts would be 0.4 percent.


In addition, the economic impact of some of the budget's proposals offsets the effect of others. Douglas Holtz-Eakin, the budget office's director, said Bush's plan for a health-insurance tax credit would help people spend more money, but his proposal to establish tax-free savings accounts for retirement and other purposes would encourage them to save — muting the economic effects of the two ideas.


"When you start lumping stuff together, it's not surprising" that they might cancel each other out, Holtz-Eakin said.


Underscoring the uncertainty of some of its analysis, the budget office cited conflicting views among experts on the economic impact of Bush's proposal to keep tax rates lower on capital gains and corporate dividends. It also said Bush's plan to keep the estate tax repealed after 2010 "could have varying effects on consumption and saving."


The budget office began examining the economic impact of White House fiscal blueprints last year in response to congressional conservatives eager to see the "supply-side" effect of Bush's budgets. They say tax cuts spur the economy, in turn generating federal revenue, by more than analysts have credited.


Many other Republicans — including Federal Reserve (news - web sites) Chairman Alan Greenspan (news - web sites) — have agreed that tax cuts have such an effect, but cautioned that there is no accurate way to measure it. Holtz-Eakin said he believes such analysis provides useful information, but said the budget cannot yet be exclusively measured that way because "the science isn't ready."


A year ago, the Congressional Budget Office examined Bush's 2004 budget and concluded that its impact was "not obvious."


As the Senate began its budget debate, Budget Committee Chairman Don Nickles, R-Okla., said his plan would help cut deficits in half in three years by clamping down on some spending.


"Deficits are far too high," he said, referring to this year's projected shortfall of about a half-trillion dollars. "It's time to be responsible."


But North Dakota Sen. Kent Conrad, the top Democrat on the budget panel, said the plans by Bush and the Senate GOP hid the real danger — the long-range deficits that loom as baby boomers begin to retire.


Bush's policies "are truly dangerous to the economic security of our country," Conrad said. "We have a responsibility to alter that course."



Honestly, is any one surprised?! Your average hobo on the street can figure out that spending money + 500 billion trade deficit + rising national debt + Iraq = dismal economy? ....whoa, that like makes sense and stuff....

Old Post Mar-09-2004 05:05  United States
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occrider
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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York
Re: Bush budget won't jump start economy says CBO

quote:
Originally posted by PHALPAX
Honestly, is any one surprised?! Your average hobo on the street can figure out that spending money + 500 billion trade deficit + rising national debt + Iraq = dismal economy? ....whoa, that like makes sense and stuff....


Yup, I was for the first bush tax cuts, against the second tax cuts (but pleasantly surprised at their results), and definitely against his desire to make the tax cuts permenant. Like I said in the economics thread ... the economy is "healthy." It's time to be a true "conservative" and be fiscally responsible. I'm sickened that the republican congress has departed from one of their core values.


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Old Post Mar-09-2004 05:11  United States
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DaveSZ
When The Levee Breaks



Registered: Jan 2003
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Old Post Mar-09-2004 11:06 
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Verona^My
full on addict



Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Rochester, NY
Re: Re: Bush budget won't jump start economy says CBO

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Yup, I was for the first bush tax cuts, against the second tax cuts (but pleasantly surprised at their results), and definitely against his desire to make the tax cuts permenant. Like I said in the economics thread ... the economy is "healthy." It's time to be a true "conservative" and be fiscally responsible. I'm sickened that the republican congress has departed from one of their core values.


Well, when you cut taxes, you just simply dont get as much revenue, my pet cat could have told you that.

Granted, the strength of the economy affects revenues, but taxes all get spent back INTO the economy anyways, I fail to see how that would have any effect. What would? Gas prices.

Conservatives dont make much sense to me with their theories on taxation. I'm familiar with the Laffer Curve, but we have some of the lowest tax rates on Earth in America. Plus conservatives seem to think that government tax money just sort of dissapears forever. Wrong, in reality it goes into wages and investments, etc, that go straight back into the economy and it keeps recirculating itself. Gas Prices on the other hand help fund other things...

Think about where your money goes when you buy gas, and then think about where the tax money goes. There you will find the cause of the recession.

I have no idea why the hell we elected another Bush, the last one we elected, gave us the same dismal results. I remember Perot and his stance on the deficit to this day.

Here is a couple of OTHER observations about taxes.

There are some clever ways politicians make up for money lost due to tax cuts.

- They reduce the amount of deductions you can claim : Translation : we pulled a fast one and really raised your taxes

- They put more of the burden on the states : Now you get to pay a bigger state tax? Whohoo

------------------------

The average unenlightened conservative doesn't know much about the real tricks politicians pull. They are really paying the same amount of taxes, or more even, just it's been switched around. More sales tax, less income tax... less deductions, more property tax, and what not.

But still Republicans will pander to the people with the rallying cry of Tax Cuts, just as much as the Democrats will pander with social programs. At least they follow the law always appeal to peoples self interest Of course this can make for bad policy.


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Old Post Mar-09-2004 12:39  United States
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Shakka
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Registered: Feb 2003
Location:
Re: Re: Re: Bush budget won't jump start economy says CBO

quote:
Originally posted by Verona^My
Granted, the strength of the economy affects revenues, but taxes all get spent back INTO the economy anyways, I fail to see how that would have any effect. What would? Gas prices.


If it all ends up getting spent back into the economy then what's the point of taxation in the first place? I guarantee you that Ican spend my own hard earned money a lot more efficiently than the government can, and that's a major reason why less taxes on me are better for the overall economy. It makes for a more efficient system. I don't need some government beaurocracy telling me how to spend my money when most government programs cost more to run than they end up saving.

And yeah, tax cuts reduce government revenue in the short-run, but over the longer-haul the stimulative activity boosts GDP and higher overall GDP results in higher overall tax collections. Taking a smaller amount out of a bigger pot is much better than taking a larger portion out of a smaller pot and risking the crowding out of future private investment.

Old Post Mar-09-2004 14:53  United States
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:

Well, when you cut taxes, you just simply dont get as much revenue, my pet cat could have told you that.


Heh well that’s a fairly obvious observation and I would be surprised if your pet cat got that wrong. Tax cuts will very rarely create revenue unless you’re particularly skewed on the Laffer curve, but what high taxes CAN do is essentially limit demand and growth.

quote:

Granted, the strength of the economy affects revenues, but taxes all get spent back INTO the economy anyways, I fail to see how that would have any effect. What would? Gas prices.

Conservatives dont make much sense to me with their theories on taxation. I'm familiar with the Laffer Curve, but we have some of the lowest tax rates on Earth in America. Plus conservatives seem to think that government tax money just sort of dissapears forever. Wrong, in reality it goes into wages and investments, etc, that go straight back into the economy and it keeps recirculating itself. Gas Prices on the other hand help fund other things...


Well, I think it’s slightly more complicated than that. First of all, I strongly believe that government dictated spending is a poor substitute for free market forces. What a government expenditure program does is that it siphons off funds from the free market, which ideally models the most efficient ratio of supply, demand, and prices, and instead spends that money in a particular area or industry whereby an inefficient and disproportionate level of supply and demand is forced. What dictates the demand? The government. What dictates the price? The government through a combination of its demand and available supply. Supply then becomes subsistent on the government as it subscribes to an unnatural level of equilibrium. So one of the major principles I subscribe to in economics is that the role of government as a major player in managing and fine tuning the economy is inefficient at best. At the most, it should use fiscal policy to simply push or prod the economy in a particular direction when needed.

Secondly you’re missing out on a major component of economic theory that government expenditure crowds out private investment. Not only do tax-financed government expenditures artificially alter the market equilibrium level of savings, and therefore investment (think of a government set ceiling or floor … clearly economic inefficiencies), but this expenditure artificially increases the demand for goods and services, which raises interest-rates, which makes capital more expensive, and therefore reduces private investment. Robert Barro did a study in 1990 examining the effects of tax-financed government expenditures on investment and output (“Government Spending in a Simple Model of Endogenous Growth”, Journal of Political Economy). In the study, higher income taxes reduced the after-tax return on private investment which affected growth negatively by lowering investent. There have been additional empirical studies done by Kormendi and Meguire (“Macroeconomics Determinants of Growth: Cross Country Evidence, Journal of Monetary Economics), Grier and Tullock (“An Empirical Analysis of Cross National Economic Growth”, Journal of Monetary Economics), and Landau (“Government Expenditure and Economic Growth: A Cross-Country Status”, Southern Economic Journal) which employ government consumption expenditure as a share of GDP and find that expenditures had either a negative or no effect on the growth of real per capita GDP. The “crowding in” of investment, whereby expenditure stimulated investment, typically only occurred in instances where a country’s economy’s resources are underemployed. For example, a developing country whereby an expenditure on productive services, such as infrastructure development, can help induce investment. However, in the case of developed countries, the former theory of “crowding out” appears to be the consistent case, and one can certainly make the argument that in the current state of the US economy, our resources are not underemployed.


quote:

But still Republicans will pander to the people with the rallying cry of Tax Cuts, just as much as the Democrats will pander with social programs. At least they follow the law always appeal to peoples self interest Of course this can make for bad policy.


Well I won’t disagree with you here. There’s a time and place for everything … tax cuts and government expenditures alike. Unfortunately, political parties often fail to recognize which fix should be applied to a particular situation.


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Old Post Mar-09-2004 16:40  United States
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MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City

Hey Occ, here's your favorite liberal op-ed. guy:

quote:



March 9, 2004
OP-ED COLUMNIST
Promises, Promises
By PAUL KRUGMAN

Despite a string of dismal employment reports, the administration insists that its economic program, which has relied entirely on tax cuts focused on the affluent, will produce big job gains any day now. Should we believe these promises?

Each February, the Economic Report of the President forecasts nonfarm payroll employment — generally considered the best measure of job growth — for the next several years. The black line in the chart above (inspired by a joint report from the Economic Policy Institute and the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities) shows the actual performance of employment, both before and after its peak in March 2001. The gray lines show the forecasts in the 2002, 2003 and 2004 reports. Notice that the February 2004 forecast, which, as in previous years, is based on data only through the preceding October, is already 900,000 jobs too high.

Economic forecasting isn't an exact science, but wishful thinking on this scale is unprecedented. Nor can the administration use its all-purpose excuse: all of these forecasts date from after 9/11. What you see in this chart is the signature of a corrupted policy process, in which political propaganda takes the place of professional analysis.


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Old Post Mar-09-2004 17:42  United States
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Hey Occ, here's your favorite liberal op-ed. guy:


I have a favorite liberal op-ed guy?


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Old Post Mar-09-2004 18:01  United States
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MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
I have a favorite liberal op-ed guy?


No silly, you just ripped his op-ed piece apart in the Greenspan thread a few days back.

That's all. Nothing more. Please disperse, nothing to see here.....


___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Old Post Mar-09-2004 18:24  United States
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
No silly, you just ripped his op-ed piece apart in the Greenspan thread a few days back.

That's all. Nothing more. Please disperse, nothing to see here.....


Oh is that Mr. Social Security??? Yes he is my favorite


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Old Post Mar-09-2004 18:32  United States
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DaveSZ
When The Levee Breaks



Registered: Jan 2003
Location: ATX
Talking The return of Clintonomics?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselectio...1163632,00.html


quote:


New ball game, same old team

Judging by John Kerry's economics advisers, a Democratic White House would mean a return match for Clintonomics. Faisal Islam reports

Sunday March 7, 2004
The Observer

A deficit expected to top $521 billion this year is the key statistic in the US presidential election campaign. But it is a surplus of another kind that is shaping the competing economic policies of the two camps.
Judging by the entourage of economic advisers that surrounds US presidential hopeful John Kerry, Clintonomics may be primed for a comeback. The senator, who this week clinched the Democratic nomination, has recycled old Clinton-era thinkers such as Alan Blinder, a Princeton economist and former vice chairman of the Federal Reserve; Laura Tyson, formerly White House economics chief and now the Dean of London Business School; and Gene Sperling, also a former economics chief.

The candidate's top economic adviser is Roger Altman, briefly Bill Clinton's deputy Treasury Secretary. Clinton's Labour Secretary Robert Reich has written Kerry's health care plan.

Another former Clinton economist - the Nobel prize-winning Joseph Stiglitz - says that there is a simple reason for the 1990s reunion. 'Clearly there's an aura of success from the Clinton years. The economy did so well it was natural for them to gravitate back to the advisers involved,' he says.

And the identity of these advisers may offer better clues to the broad macroeconomic strategy of a prospective Kerry administration than mere election rhetoric.

In 2000, few could have envisaged the seismic shift in economic policy that would accompany the arrival of President Bush in the White House. At that time government forecasters predicted a surplus over the decade to 2010 of some $4.6 trillion. Four years on, the outlook for that period is a deficit of about $2 trillion.

Yet a look at Bush's entourage during his election campaign - mainly recycled from the high-deficit era of Reaganomics - would have given clear indication of how his administration would go.

Larry Lindsey, Bush Jr's chief economist, was charged with fleshing out the economic policy details of Dubya's 'compassionate conservatism'. Lindsey's expertise was in tax cuts, and that putative surplus gave him the opportunity to cut like never before - to the tune of $1,300bn. Glen Hubbard, who headed the White House Council of Economic Advisers, argued that the 1990s boom years were not the work of Clinton policies at all, but the long-term consequence of the feted two-band (15 and 28 per cent) Reagan tax reform of 1986.

Hubbard's most famous paper dis puted the widely held belief that, between 1977 and 1988, Reaganomics had exacerbated inequality to the point that the richest 1 per cent of American families had gained 70 per cent of income growth. Taking account of lifetime incomes, he said, the proportion was markedly lower.

So the zeal with which Bush would cut taxes, and the focus of those cuts on the rich, was clear from before he set foot in the White House. George W. Bush's economic policy was always going to be a return to a type of Reaganomics.

So how do the two candidates' broad economic strategies compare? 'Both men aim to halve the deficit over the next four years. The key policy difference is that Bush will make his tax cuts permanent and hold back spending, while Kerry would repeal the Bush tax cuts for high-income earners to pay for his spending programmes,' says Ian Morris, US economist at HSBC.

Stiglitz is unconvinced by Bush's plan. 'The basic outline of Bush's economic policy is reckless. Tax cuts for the rich is disguised as a stimulus which did not provide much stimulus but a large deficit. With Kerry's plan we will get more stimulus with less deficit and more equity. The economy is still anaemic. We need more stimulus, and you can't do that with tax cuts,' says the Nobel prize-winner.

Bush's sums simply don't add up, he says. 'The truth is that Bush is lying when he says that he'll halve the deficit. Expansion of the military and making his tax cuts permanent means that there is no way he'll cut the deficit in half,' he says.

Kerry is specifically planning to reverse Bush's tax cuts for those earning above $200,000 to pay for $72bn worth of healthcare reform.

But HSBC's Morris points out that clashes with Congress are likely to stifle the deficit-cutting verve of whichever candidate is elected. 'Deficits of $400-$450bn are likely until 2008 and beyond under both men. This would raise the public debt-to-GDP ratio from 37 per cent currently to 45 per cent in 2008,' he says.

Stiglitz sees the imprimatur of the Clintonian economics team. 'They are all very centrist. Kerry has adopted clearly a very mainstream macroeconomic policy, whereas with Bush you have non-mainstream people saying deficits don't matter'.

Altman, Kerry's electoral economics chief, demonstrated strong worries about deficits under Clinton. Gene Sperling is 'very committed to educational issues', says Stiglitz.

Blinder is famous in economics circles for a speech saying that the objective of monetary policy should not just be inflation but unemployment and growth - in contrast with Alan Greenspan, chairman of the Federal Reserve Board. Indeed, Blinder resigned after just 18 months' service at the Federal Reserve in 1994 because of such tensions.

That experience marks him out as a potential successor to Greenspan should Kerry get elected. Greenspan himself has controversially become embroiled in the election campaign following a series of speeches. He has discussed the drawbacks of 30-year fixed-rate mortgages, the privatisation of public mortgage companies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, cutting pensions for future generations, and current laws on intellectual property rights.

'Many of us have long suspected that Greenspan had a political agenda and has not fulfilled the role of an independent non-partisan central banker,' says Stiglitz.

Greenspan is likely to be reconfirmed in the summer for a final stint at the Fed until 2006. But Blinder would be a hot favourite to replace him under a President Kerry.

Blinder's analysis of the role of 'pointy-headed' economists is perhaps relevant whoever wins November's election. His 'Murphy's Law of Economic Policy' says: 'Economists have the least influence on policy where they know the most and are most agreed and the most influence where they know the least and disagree most vehemently.'

Whatever they disagree on, neither camp is likely to revert to the formal strong-dollar policy tacitly abandoned by Bush during this time of relatively high unemployment in the US. The difference, says Stiglitz, may be that a more multilateralist Kerry administration would take greater account of the dangers of a weak dollar to other countries.

And so, a real choice has opened up. As Stiglitz says: 'The strange thing is that the Republicans have become extremists, and the Democrats are centrists [in that they are] for fiscal conservatism and stimulus. This is a contest between two alternative philosophies'.


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Old Post Mar-10-2004 12:05 
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rupert
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Location: bris vegas

quote:
Like I said in the economics thread ... the economy is "healthy." It's time to be a true "conservative" and be fiscally responsible. I'm sickened that the republican congress has departed from one of their core values


You just dont get it, running fiscal deficits is a deliberate strategy. Its not about having a responsible economic policy. They know what they are doing and they have a vision of what they want to turn your country into.

They want to have government "small enough to drown in a bath tub" Of course, when they talk about big government they arent talking about the military or the prisons, they are talking about social security, health, welfare, environmental protection, corporate watchdogs, public housing.

Reagan did exactly the same thing in the 80's, massive increases to the budget deficit to fund increases in the military and then force his successors to cut other programs to bring the budget into balance. Why did President Clinton have to "end welfare as we know it" other than to cut spending to try and make the government live within its means.

I read somewhere that Dick Cheney once said "deficits dont matter". Well he is wrong. The only legitimate excuse for deficit financing of government expenditure is when major projects are sot expensive that they cannot be funded out of normal expenditure, such as building a bridge or a railroad which will in turn lead to greater tax revenues. I could understand running up massive deficits to repair the USA's run down tranmission networks or funding universities to give it a competitive edge but the deficits are used to fund weapons, the ultimate in dud investments. Deficits represent
1) a wealth transfer from taxpayers to bondholders
2) crowding out of investment from stocks to bonds
3) a wealth transfer from the future to the present.
4) a potential trigger for inflation
5) a real tendency towards having to increase interest rates in order to ensure that the bonds attract sufficient buyers.

The USA founding fathers mantra was no taxation without representation. They must be turning in their graves, deficits are the ultimate unfair taxation as future generations who have to pay the interest on the bonds used to pay for the deficit have no say in the tax they have to pay.

They know that they cant clock up ever spiralling deficits forever. The markets will not allow it. So eventually there will come a time where they will say time to show restraint, live within our means. Of course that means cuts to spending. What are they going to cut, the defence budget. I dont think so. The United States is such a jingoistic nation that any attempt to cut the military by any substantial amount will always get the politician proposing it crucified as being unpatriotic.

So they will put the squeeze even further on local governments which in one report I read (albeit about a year ago) a large percentage of USA municipal governments are technically insolvent.

USA government is a revolving door between the boardroom of the big corporations (who give the campaign contributions) to the cabinet room. "He who pays the piper gets to call the tune." And the democrats arent much better. I once read a report, (again quite a while ago) about the backgrounds of the people in Congress and government. They do not seem to be representative of the average american. What they are representative of is the big business interests who really run the USA. It is an oligarchy. And they hate have the government spend on anything other than things which benefit the corporations.

Within about 10-15 years time the USA will look no different than Brazil, a financially bankrupt country yet fantastically rich in resources controlled by a tiny minority for a tiny minority and at the bottom a vast mass of poor people feeding off the scraps

Old Post Mar-12-2004 10:15  Australia
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