it's too distracting from the real issue of shaming Bush out of office

seriously, I'm waiting for the results of the ongoing investigation.
We could all speculate, I suppose, but ultimately you have to ask yourself does the current investigation have legitamate jurisdiction and the power to put together a comprhensive case?

What kind of secret deals are going on to prevent that?

What other deals are being made to appease our so-called allies for our interests?

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo What other deals are being made to appease our so-called allies for our interests?

But making a deal is not corruption unless it's illegal. What has been alleged at the UN is an elaborate system of kickbacks, bribes, and skimming that goes much further than making a "deal". So far, the scandal has implicated the names of senior UN officials and members of country delegations. I think it's perfectly proper to question what their motivations were at the Security Council votes.

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FLUSHED THE JOHNS!

correct. I should have been more specific on that point

I am surprised. Only Americans have replied to this thread. Where are the outraged Europeans? How does the saying go? "Silence means consent." I find it troubling that no European has said that what happened is wrong. Are we to assume they are fine with their politicians stealing billions of dollars from the famine-ravaged Iraqi people whom that money was supposed to feed? The Iraqis have been living in a nightmare and are still going through hell. Europeans are quick to rise to anger at American foreign policy. But when their policy may also be considered tainted as we now see in the Oil for Food program, oughtn't some of that anger--even if it's just a tiny bit of it--be directed toward their own politicians who are involved in this scandal? I notice many Americans on this forum are quick to distance themselves from America's foreign policy and condemn the acts perpetrated against others. Why is this not so with Europeans when they too have acts that must be condemned? Or is the stealing of Iraqi money for personal profit what European diplomats refer to as "Noblesse Oblige"?

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"Nothing is true; everything is permitted" -- WIlliam S. Burroughs

"We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are." -- Anais Nin

Wtf are you talking about? Since when was the UN a "European" organisation? Are you criticising administrational members of the UN (who most certainly - if the allegations are true - deserve to be criticised) or just trying to find an excuse to criticise Europe? This isn't European policy - it's global policy. There's no point in goading the European members of this forum into justifying the mistakes made by the administrators of this UN program, as this is not an issue any more relevent or specific to independant European states - or the EU in general - than it is to the US. In fact the program was initiated by the US under the Clinton administration after it realised that the sanctions imposed on Saddam's Iraq were only harming the Iraqi people and had absolutely no effect on the strength of Saddam's rule (this was after Mrs Albright described the alleged deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children under the scheme as "worth it"). The oil-for-food program was a way of maintaining the policy of containment while trying to ensure, as best as possible, that funds reached the Iraqi people. Regardless of these allegations of bribery, the program was generally a success, with some $65 billion passing through the progam and being used to directly benfit the Iraqi people (see here).

If you want to cause some controversy, perhaps you could ask what's happenned to the $ 4 billion left over from the Oil-For-Food program since the money's been transferred been transferred into US/CPA hands ($7.3 billion spent that the CPA either haven't reported spending or have reported insufficiently or incompletely)? Or perhaps you could examine why the Oil-For-Food money was used - not for humanitarian aid - but to pay for Halliburton contracts (see here)? If you want to troll and intimate outrage at the actions of the European states, then at least try to do it properly. Might I recommend the usual recourse to making jokes about how the French surrendered in WW2 before the US saved their asses? That'd be wicked funny.

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http://eschatonnow.blogspot.com/

That's interesting you would suggest I'm trying to stir up controversy. I suppose any criticism of American policy here on these forums could be considered likewise...just people trying to stir up controversy? I'll keep that in mind. It renders all the posts critical of America meaningless. The fact is that the ones involved in this scandal are European politicians, with the ocassional Russian thrown in for good measure. Why are you so defensive about this? Wrong doing was done. Shouldn't this situation, like any where injustice is being done, be investigated and those convicted be punished? Or should we just give the U.N. a pass? Tell them it's okay, but next time try to be more careful in their duplicity. But I've got to hand it to you. Your post did make me smile; it was exactly what I was expecting: divert all blame, mock the questioner, then add an insult at the end. Well done.

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"Nothing is true; everything is permitted" -- WIlliam S. Burroughs

"We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are." -- Anais Nin

Last edited by cfyoung4 on Jun-02-2004 at 15:52

good post renegade, as usual

quote:

Originally posted by cfyoung4 That's interesting you would suggest I'm trying to stir up controversy. I suppose any criticism of American policy here on these forums could be considered likewise..just people trying to stir up controversy? I'll keep that in mind. It renders all the posts critical of America meaningless. The fact is that the ones involved in this scandal are European politicians, with the ocassional Russian thrown in for good measure. Why are you so defensive about this? Wrong doing was done. Shouldn't this situation, like any where injustice is being done, be investigated and those convicted be punished? Or should we just give the U.N. a pass? Tell them it's okay, but next time try to be more careful in their duplicity. But I've got to hand it to you. Your post did make me smile; it was exactly what I was expecting: divert all blame, mock the questioner, then add an insult at the end. Well done.

as opposed to many US people on this board, we don't defend stupid policies

ineed they should do an investigation, indeed they should punnish the people here.

you still haven't answered renegade's question, what has this to do with europe in special?

What it has to do with Europe is that it is European politicians who are implicated. Sure, under the guise of the U.N. but these politicians, I would hope, were acting on their own and not under official mandate to commit crimes. Otherwise it would mean the entire U.N. has its hands dirty. Therefore, I am not accusing the entire U.N. of wrong doing, only those who are in clear violation. Those people, I'm sorry to say, are Europeans. I just want justice wherever injustice is. If Americans are at fault, Americans should pay. If Europeans are at fault, Europeans should pay. I'm an equal opportunity blame-layer. I don't believe in giving anyone a pass who injures another. I am just surprised that I have heard no discussion about this from Europeans. Imagine the outrcry if it was shown American politicians were implicated in this? You'd have postings all over this forum. And in my opinion, that would be fine because they committed the crime. But when the unfortunate blame lands at the foot of certain European politicians, everyone is quiet. I'm sure Renegade would not jump up and say to a European who criticizes America, "Hey! You're being controversial. Stop it!" So why do this when there are legitimate questions about what has happened in this instance? It begins to look like a double standard.

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"Nothing is true; everything is permitted" -- WIlliam S. Burroughs

"We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are." -- Anais Nin

Last edited by cfyoung4 on Jun-02-2004 at 15:55

quote:

Originally posted by cfyoung4 I suppose any criticism of American policy here on these forums could be considered likewise..just people trying to stir up controversy? I'll keep that in mind. It renders all the posts critical of America meaningless.

If you were making a legitimate point rather than merely pointing the finger at European states that had nothing (got that?) to do with the scandal just for the sake of it, then I wouldn't have accused you of stirring up controversy. On what basis are you implicating these European states? If you can't draw a direct link between the scandal and the governments of the EU, then your posts are nothing but baseless muckraking intended get a rise out of the European members of this forum.

quote:

The fact is that the ones involved in this scandal are European politicians, with the ocassional Russian thrown in for good measure. Why are you so defensive about this?

What? I'm not being defensive about the (alleged) guilt of those involved at all. If they did wrong then they deserve to be punished, regardless of their nationality. All I'm saying is that your generalisation based on the nationality of these people is ill-founded and the implication of entire nations (or even an entire continent) in the scandal just because a few people who happened to live there did wrong defies all common sense.

quote:

Wrong doing was done. Shouldn't this situation, like any where injustice is being done, be investigated and those convicted be punished?

Yes!

Like I said, if wrong-doing is uncovered then those in the wrong deserve to be punished. I don't think that anyone here will disagree with that.

quote:

Or should we just give the U.N. a pass? Tell them it's okay, but next time try to be more careful in their duplicity.

No!

If there is an administrational problem with the UN - a problem that allowed this sort of fraud to happen - then there obviously needs to be an enquiry and the problem needs to be fixed. But that's exactly what I've been trying to say all along - it's the UN's problem, not Europe's!

quote:

What it has to do with Europe is that it is European politicians who are implicated. Sure, under the guise of the U.N. but these politicians, I would hope, were acting on their own and not under official mandate to commit crimes. Otherwise it would mean the entire U.N. has its hands dirty. Therefore, I am not accusing the entire U.N. of wrong doing, only those who are in clear violation. Those people, I'm sorry to say, are Europeans. I just want justice wherever injustice is. If Americans are at fault, Americans should pay. If Europeans are at fault, Europeans should pay. I'm an equal opportunity blame-layer. I don't believe in giving anyone a pass who injures another. I am just surprised that I have heard no discussion about this from Europeans. Imagine the outrcry if it was shown American politicians were implicated in this? You'd have postings all over this forum. And in my opinion, that would be fine because they committed the crime. But when the unfortunate blame lands at the foot of certain European politicians, everyone is quiet.

They're Europeans, but they're not acting on behalf of any European state. If you can prove that any European government ordered, authorized or had knowledge of this, then you're quite right to implicate that particular nation and then I'll start to listen to you. When you have individuals, however, who are working independantly from their nation of birth (regardless of nationality, or whether they're politicians or not) then on what possible grounds can you implicate the entire nation? Apart from drowning these people at birth, what could they have possibly done to have prevented this from happenning? The only guilty ones here are those directly involved in the scandal, and the only organisation involved is the UN. By trying to implicate the entire continent of Europe in this scandal you're merely betraying your inability to think rationality, and perhaps a pathological antipathy towards Europe as well.

Like I said, I'll join you in the condemnation of those involved, just as I would if those involved were American or Australian, but - as I said in my first post - I can only question your motivation for making the assertions that imply some sort of wrong-doing on behalf of the EU or its members.

quote:

I'm sure Renegade would not jump up and say to a European who criticizes America, "Hey! You're being controversial. Stop it!" So why do this when there are legitimate questions about what has happened in this instance?

But none of the questions you've raised have been "legitimate" at all. If you are muckraking without legitimate purpose then you are either doing it just to stir up controversy or because your stupid. I chose to give you the benefit of the doubt, so please don't give me any more reasons to change my mind.

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http://eschatonnow.blogspot.com/

I just thought Europeans would condemn their politicians who engage in this kind of behavior as Americans will of theirs. I was surprised there was no talk of it here because I expected there to be balanced coverage of all the issues. If you feel the need to resort to calling me stupid to further your argument, that's fine.

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"Nothing is true; everything is permitted" -- WIlliam S. Burroughs

"We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are." -- Anais Nin

Last edited by cfyoung4 on Jun-02-2004 at 16:24

It has nothing to do with European countries (except for maybe a few shady politicians). The US could be held just as liable since we are a part of the UN you know? But it has everything to do with the UN, and THAT makes me happy


/resident un hater

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