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imokruok
Lawyers, guns, and money



Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Los Angeles, CA / Milwaukee, WI
9/11 Commission Flawed From The Start

Say what you will about John Ashcroft, he has been the first person in the Bush administration to have some balls in front of the commission. This was what we learned today, and what will hopefully be reported in the mainstream press tomorrow: It looks like one member of the commission, Jamie Gorelick, should be testifying in front of it rather than being on it.

This is the statement from Ashcroft today, regarding the "wall" between intelligence and criminal investigations that seriously injured the ability of law enforcement agencies to cooperate:

quote:
But somebody did make these rules. Someone built this wall.

The basic architecture for the wall in the 1995 Guidelines was contained in a classified memorandum entitled "Instructions on Separation of Certain Foreign Counterintelligence and Criminal Investigations." The memorandum ordered FBI Director Louis Freeh and others, quote: "We believe that it is prudent to establish a set of instructions that will more clearly separate the counterintelligence investigation from the more limited, but continued, criminal investigations. These procedures, which go beyond what is legally required, will prevent any risk of creating an unwarranted appearance that FISA is being used to avoid procedural safeguards which would apply in a criminal investigation."

This memorandum established a wall separating the criminal and intelligence investigations following the 1993 World Trade Center attack, the largest international terrorism attack on American soil prior to September 11. Although you understand the debilitating impact of the wall, I cannot imagine that the Commission knew about this memorandum, so I have declassified it for you and the public to review. Full disclosure compels me to inform you that its author is a member of this Commission.



The memo may be viewed here. Author: Jamie Gorelick.


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Old Post Apr-14-2004 04:41  United States
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Izzy
Virtue & Vice



Registered: Apr 2001
Location: TX TA #5
Re: 9/11 Commission Flawed From The Start

quote:
Originally posted by imokruok
Say what you will about John Ashcroft, he has been the first person in the Bush administration to have some balls in front of the commission. This was what we learned today, and what will hopefully be reported in the mainstream press tomorrow: It looks like one member of the commission, Jamie Gorelick, should be testifying in front of it rather than being on it.

This is the statement from Ashcroft today, regarding the "wall" between intelligence and criminal investigations that seriously injured the ability of law enforcement agencies to cooperate:



The memo may be viewed here. Author: Jamie Gorelick.


lol, that congressman is busted


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Old Post Apr-14-2004 04:57 
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

you go all-mighty Arch fundie leader you!

show them what you got



p.s.
if anyone opened the link for the declassified document, I'd like to point out that I like how they just put a small line over the word "secret" and it made the document declassified. I always thought it was much more complicated than that


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Old Post Apr-14-2004 06:19  Israel
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Ondrayce
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Just out of reach.

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
p.s.
if anyone opened the link for the declassified document, I'd like to point out that I like how they just put a small line over the word "secret" and it made the document declassified. I always thought it was much more complicated than that


As opposed to the thick black marker they used on the original report?


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Old Post Apr-14-2004 09:20  United States
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imokruok
Lawyers, guns, and money



Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Los Angeles, CA / Milwaukee, WI

The first Congressional call for resignation:

quote:


Sensenbrenner Urges Commissioner Gorelick to Resign from the 9/11 Commission Because of Her Conflict of Interest

4/14/2004 12:07:00 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: National Desk

Contact: Jeff Lungren or Terry Shawn of the House Committee on the Judiciary, 202-225-2492, http://www.house.gov/judiciary

WASHINGTON, April 14 /U.S. Newswire/ -- House Judiciary Committee Chairman F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr. (R-Wis.) released the following statement:

"Yesterday, a 1995 memo written by 9/11 Commission Member Jamie Gorelick, in her former role as the second in command at the Justice Department, revealed her actions in establishing the heightened 'wall' prohibiting the sharing of intelligence information and criminal information. Scrutiny of this policy lies at the heart of the Commission's work. Ms. Gorelick has an inherent conflict of interest as the author of this memo and as a government official at the center of the events in questions. Thus, I believe the Commission's work and independence will be fatally damaged by the continued participation of Ms. Gorelick as a Commissioner. Reluctantly, I have come to the conclusion that Ms. Gorelick should resign from this Commission.

"The Commission's Guidelines on Recusals state, 'Commissioners and staff will recuse themselves from investigating work they performed in prior government service.' Commissioner Gorelick's memo directing a policy that 'go(es) beyond what is legally required' indicates that her judgment and actions as the Deputy Attorney General in the Reno Justice Department are very much in question before the Commission. Indeed Attorney General Ashcroft called this DOJ policy, 'the single greatest structural cause for September 11 ... (and) embraced flawed legal reasoning.' Commissioner Gorelick is in the unfair position of trying to address the key issue before the Commission when her own actions are central to the events at issue. The public cannot help but ask legitimate questions about her motives.

"While it is regrettable that this conflict had not come to light sooner, this Commission's work and forthcoming recommendations are too important to be questioned in this way, and may be devalued by Ms. Gorelick's continued participation as a Commissioner. Given Ms. Gorelick's work as the Deputy Attorney General under Janet Reno, Ms. Gorelick can be quite valuable to the Commission's work preparing 'a full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.' However, that contribution should come as a witness before the Commission - not as a member.

"Key figures like former FBI Director Freeh, Director Mueller, Attorney General Ashcroft, former presidential adviser Richard Clarke, and National Security Advisor Condoleeza Rice have all testified before the Commission and would have rightly sparked indignation about a conflict of interest had these individuals also been members of the Commission. Testifying before the Commission is Ms. Gorelick's proper role, not sitting as a member of this independent commission."


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Old Post Apr-14-2004 17:55  United States
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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by imokruok
The first Congressional call for resignation:



Damn! Talk about opening a can of worms!

Old Post Apr-14-2004 19:09  United States
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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

I got this through email so I can't verify whether or not it was really written by Zell Miller, but the content would lead me to believe it probably was. In any event, even if it wasn't written by him, the points still resonate the same with me. Bottom line, we're wasting a lot of time and valuable resources trying to point fingers and pin blame as we dwell on the past instead of focusing our efforts towards the future to ensure that we are better suited to respond to future threats. Ultimate responsibility for flying planes into buildings lies in the hands of those who were controlling the planes and those who made the concientious decision to do such. No amount of finger pointing and blame game shinanigans can bring back any of those lost, and it makes the U.S. look weaker from an international perspective to our enemies.

quote:
>This expresses what many Americans feel (Republican or Democrat). Zell Miller is a Senator from Georgia and a Democrat. This needed to be said....

U.S. Senator Zell Miller
Floor Statement: 'A House Divided Cannot Stand'
Remarks as Delivered on the Senate Floor

After watching the harsh acrimony generated by the September 11 Commission which, let me say at the outset, is made up of good and able members - I've come to seriously question this panel's usefulness.

I believe it will ultimately play a role in doing great harm to this
country, for its unintended consequences, I fear, will be to energize our enemies and demoralize our troops.

After being drowned in a tidal wave of all who didn't do enough before
9/11, I have come to believe that the Commission should issue a report that says: "No one did enough in the past. No one did near enough." Then thank everyone for serving, send them home and let's get on with the job of protecting this country in the future.

Tragically, these hearings have proved to be a very divisive diversion for this country. Tragically, they have devoured valuable time, looking backwards when we should be looking forward.

Can you imagine handling the attack on Pearl Harbor this way? Can you
imagine Congress, the media and the public standing for this kind of
political gamesmanship and finger pointing after that "day of infamy" in 1941?

Some partisans tried that ploy, but they were soon quieted by the patriots who understood how important it was to get on with the war and take the battle to America's enemies, and not dwell on what FDR knew when.

You see, back then the highest priority was to win a war, not win an
election. That's what made them "The Greatest Generation."

I realize that many well-meaning Americans see the hearings as "democracy in action." Years ago, when I was teaching political science, I probably would have had my class watching it live on television and using that very phrase with them.

There are also the not-so-well-meaning political operatives who see these hearings as an opportunity to "score cheap points."

Then, there are the Media Meddlers who see this as "great theater" that can be played out on the evening news and on endless talk shows for a week or more.

Congressional hearings have long been one of Washington's most
entertaining pastimes. Joe McCarthy Watergate. Iran Contra. They all kept us glued to the TV, and made for conversation around the water coolers and arguments over a beer at the corner pub.

A Congressional hearing in Washington, D.C. is the ultimate aphrodisiac for political groupies and partisan punks.

But, it's not the groupies, punks and television-sotted American public that I'm worried about. This latter crowd can get excited and divided over just about anything. Whether it's some off-key wanna-be dreaming of being the American Idol, or what brainless bimbo The Bachelor or Average Joe will choose or who will Donald Trump fire next week.

No, it is the real enemies of America that I'm concerned about.
These evil killers who right now, right now are gleefully watching the
shrill partisan finger pointing of these hearings and grinning like a mule eating briars.

They see this as a major split within the Great Satan America. They see anger, they see division, instability, bickering, peevishness and dissension.

They see the President of the United States hammered unmercifully. They see all this and they are greatly, greatly encouraged.

We should not be doing anything to encourage our enemies in this battle between good and evil. Yet, these hearings, in my opinion, are doing just that.

We are playing with fire. We're playing directly into the hands of our
enemy by allowing these hearings to become the great divider they have become.

Dick Clarke's book and its release coinciding with these hearings have
done this country a tremendous disservice, and someday we will reap its whirlwind.

Long ago, Sir Walter Scott observed that revenge is "the sweetest morsel that ever was cooked in hell."

The vindictive Clarke has now had his revenge, but what kind of hell has he, his CBS publisher and his axe-to-grind advocates unleashed?

These hearings, coming on the heels of the election the terrorists
influenced in Spain, bolster and energize our evil enemies as they have not been energized since 9/11.

Chances are very good that these evil enemies of America will attempt to influence our 2004 election in a similar dramatic way as they did Spain's. And to think that could never be in this country is to stick your head in the sand.

That is why the sooner we stop this endless bickering over the past and join together to prepare for the future, the better off this country will be. There are some things - whether this city believes it or not - that are just more important than political campaigns.

The recent past is so ripe for political second-guessing "gotcha" and
Monday morning quarter-backing And it is so tempting in an election year. We should not allow ourselves to indulge that temptation. We should put our country first.

Every administration from Jimmy Carter to George W. Bush bears some of the blame. Dick Clarke bears a big heap of it because it was he who was in the catbird's seat to do something about it for more than a decade. Tragically, it was the decade in which we did the least.

We did nothing after terrorists attacked the World Trade Center in 1993, killing six and injuring more than 1,000 Americans.

We did nothing in 1996 when sixteen U.S. servicemen were killed in the
bombing of the Khobar Towers.

When our embassies were attacked in 1998, killing 263 people, our only
response was to fire a few missiles on an empty tent.

Is it any wonder? Is it any wonder that after that decade of weak-willed responses to that murderous terror, our enemies thought we would never fight back?

In the 1990's is when Dick Clarke should have resigned. In the 1990's is when he should have apologized. That is when he should have written his book. That is, if he really had America's best interest at heart.

Some will say, "We owe it to the families" to get more information about what happened in the past and I can understand that. But no amount of finger-pointing will bring our victims back.

So, now we owe it to future families and all of America now in jeopardy not to encourage more terrorists, resulting in even more grieving families, perhaps many more over the ones of 9/11.

It's obvious to me that this country is rapidly dividing itself into two camps: the wimps and the warriors.

The ones who want to argue and assess and appease, and the ones who want to carry this fight to our enemies and kill them before they kill us. And, in case you haven't figured it out, I proudly belong to the latter.

This is a time like no other in the history of this country, and this
country is being crippled with petty partisan politics of the worst
possible kind. In time of war, it is not just unpatriotic; it is stupid, and it is criminal.

So, I pray that all this time, all this energy, all this talk and all this attention could be focused on the future instead of the past.

I pray we would stop pointing fingers, assigning blame and wringing our hands about what happened on that day David McCullogh has called "the worst day in our history" more than two years ago. And instead, pour all of our energy into how we can kill these terrorists
before they kill us - again.

For make no mistake about it. They watch these hearings. They are scheming and smiling about the distraction and the divisiveness they see in America. And while they may not know who said it years ago in America, they know instinctively that a house divided cannot stand.

There is one other group that we should remember is listening to all of this - our troops. I was in Iraq in January and one day when I was meeting with the 1st Armored Division, a unit with a proud history known as Old Ironsides, we were discussing troop morale, and the Commanding General said it was top notch.

And I turned to the Division's Sergeant Major, the top enlisted man in the division, a big, burly, 6-foot-3, 240 pound African American and I said, "That's good, but how do you sustain that kind of morale?"

Without hesitation he narrowed his eyes, and he looked at me and said "The morale will stay high just as long as these troops know the people back home support us."

Just as long as the people back home support us. What kind of message are these hearings and the outrageously political speeches on the floor of the Senate yesterday sending to those marvelous young Americans in the uniform of our country?

I say Unite America! Before it is too late! Put aside these petty partisan differences when it comes to the protection of our people.

Argue and argue and argue and debate and debate and debate over all the other things - jobs and education and the deficit and the environment - but please, please do not use the lives of Americans and the security of this country as a cheap-shot political talking point.

Old Post Apr-14-2004 19:37  United States
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
But somebody did make these rules. Someone built this wall.

The basic architecture for the wall in the 1995 Guidelines was contained in a classified memorandum entitled "Instructions on Separation of Certain Foreign Counterintelligence and Criminal Investigations." The memorandum ordered FBI Director Louis Freeh and others, quote: "We believe that it is prudent to establish a set of instructions that will more clearly separate the counterintelligence investigation from the more limited, but continued, criminal investigations. These procedures, which go beyond what is legally required, will prevent any risk of creating an unwarranted appearance that FISA is being used to avoid procedural safeguards which would apply in a criminal investigation."

This memorandum established a wall separating the criminal and intelligence investigations following the 1993 World Trade Center attack, the largest international terrorism attack on American soil prior to September 11. Although you understand the debilitating impact of the wall, I cannot imagine that the Commission knew about this memorandum, so I have declassified it for you and the public to review. Full disclosure compels me to inform you that its author is a member of this Commission.


That's funny ... apparentely Ashcroft didn't really mind this wall that was built when Ashcroft's justice department upheld Ms Gorelick's interpretation of the FISA in 2001 as pointed out by cross examination from Slade Gorton.

Bah the whole 9/11 commission finger pointing fiasco is worthless. Bush is as culpable as any other president. When can we have an Iraq commission?


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Old Post Apr-15-2004 06:41  United States
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MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
That's funny ... apparentely Ashcroft didn't really mind this wall that was built when Ashcroft's justice department upheld Ms Gorelick's interpretation of the FISA in 2001 as pointed out by cross examination from Slade Gorton.

Bah the whole 9/11 commission finger pointing fiasco is worthless. Bush is as culpable as any other president. When can we have an Iraq commission?


Bingo.


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Old Post Apr-15-2004 18:35  United States
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Izzy
Virtue & Vice



Registered: Apr 2001
Location: TX TA #5


BLEH
lets just agree that everyone who works/ed on security matters was partly responsible in one way or another, i dont think you can blame it on one guy, nor can you completely blame the gov for protecting agianst something as insane as 9/11

the good thing is that at least now things are being done to beef up security and make sure something like this doesnt happen agian.


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Old Post Apr-15-2004 23:21 
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