thats silly.

Gold like government notes fluctuates on demand.

All you are doing is taking national power away from currency.

Instead of the US being able to maintain the standard of its currency to prevent disasterous economic cycles with gold you are at mercy of the international system.

If gold prices drop world wide, everybody is screwed.

If the US dollar drops world wide (and you don't want it to), you stop printing it.


The decline in the worth of the US dollar is not making the US poorer, if anything it is making Europe poorer.

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quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus If the US dollar drops world wide (and you don't want it to), you stop printing it.

Like they would ever stop printing dollars with our burgeoning debt.

China owns too much of our National debt as it is. If they were to start dumping we would find ourselves in a tight situation.

quote:

Let me remind you why you need to do that. Two years ago, May 9, we passed the President's spending plan. The President's tax cuts passed with almost every Republican vote, passed with a couple of Democratic votes. I voted against it. I did not think it would work. It turns out this time I was right. In just over 2 years under that budget passed by you guys, you have increased the national debt by $1 trillion. Let us put that in reference. If you went all the way from the Revolutionary War to 1979, the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Mexican-American War, the Civil War, the Spanish-American War, World War I, World War II, Korea and Vietnam, built the interstate highway system, built the Golden Gate Bridge, the intercoastal waterway, we borrowed less than $1 trillion. In 25 months, you guys have borrowed $1 trillion. The Speaker in the chair knows what a $1,000 check looks like. It is what a lot of us write for rent checks up here in Washington. If you wrote that $1,000 rent check a thousand times, you have spent a million. If you wrote a $1 million check a thousand times, you have spent a billion. If you wrote a $1 billion check a thousand times, you have spent a trillion. That is how much money a trillion is. In just the past 12 months, you have increased the national debt by $544 billion. More importantly, you have stolen $371 billion from the Social Security trust fund. Mr. Speaker, the reason I say stolen is if you take it back and you do not have a plan to repay it, it is stealing. If someone pays on their payroll taxes toward Social Security, they fully expect it to be put in a trust fund just for Social Security and that it is going to be sitting there for when they need it. That is not the plan, Mr. Speaker. I would encourage you or any of my colleagues to tell me the name of the bank account that the Social Security trust fund is put in. Because you know and I know there is not a dime in it. It is nothing but IOUs, government securities. You have borrowed $167 billion from Medicare, the same thing. Hard-working Americans pay payroll taxes. On that payroll tax is a line item that goes to Medicare with the promise that it would be set aside just for their retirement. There is not a penny there. Military retirement, the Federal employees' retirement, we owe the Federal employees' retirement system, Mr. Speaker, over $500 billion. There are laws that would have prevented you back when you were in your medical practice from dipping into your employees' retirement fund for any reason, good or bad. If you had done so, you would have gone to jail. There is not a penny in the Federal employees' retirement fund. Yet you continue to borrow against it to disguise the true nature of the American debt. You borrowed $314 billion from foreign investors, and my buddy from Cuba will love this one, because you have borrowed $52.5 billion from Communist China. You have borrowed $122 billion from Japan. We now owe $1.3 trillion to foreign nations and investors, including $122 billion to Communist China. Tell me you are proud of that. Tell me the Republican majority is proud that we owe $122 billion to China and that $50 billion a year of American tax dollars go to pay interest on what we owe just to foreigners like the Communist Chinese. Our children will have to pay back China, Japan, our foreign creditors before they can even get back to paying what we should have paid all along to Social Security, Medicare and the retirement funds. They have to repay our debts before they ever repay theirs. This is the Republican place in history. You are responsible for more deficit spending this year than in any year in American history. Tell me you are proud of that. You are responsible for the largest increase in the national debt in American history. Tell me you are proud of that. http://www.house.gov/genetaylor/floor07-16-03.htm

Last edited by Trancer-X on Dec-15-2004 at 00:14

It definitely makes THIS look like it's from the good old days!

I don't understand what all this negativism is about.

Realize this:

US GDP is 11 TRILLION DOLLARS A YEAR.

That means every year, the USA creates 11 trillion dollars in wealth. Money that for the most part, did not exist before.

The US Federal Government takes a big ass junk of this change in the form of income tax - lets say 30% for the sake of argument. Thats 3.3 TRILLION dollars a year for the Federal budget.

Now you tell me this, and I'll assume its true again for th esake of argument:

quote:

$1.3 trillion to foreign nations and investors, including $122 billion to Communist China. Tell me you are proud of that. Tell me the Republican majority is proud that we owe $122 billion to China and that $50 billion a year of American tax dollars go to pay interest on what we owe just to foreigners like the Communist Chinese

Now if the USA is paying just 50 billion dollars a year on a 1,300 billion dollar debt, thats some good interest! At less than 4% a year, try and get that for your house or car!

Now if the USA wanted too, it could pay back the debt in one year, all it would have to do is either raise taxes slightly, or cut down a 1/3 of the government. Or, if we consider what debt really is - a loan, it has 10-50 years to pay it back with no consequence.

If you are buying a house for $120,000 (and purchase it via a loan) and making $340,000 a year it is a comparable to the state of the Federal Government. Now, if I were to tell you that you are fiscally irresponsible for buying a 120k house when you are making 340k a year, you'd laught at me. Why is it different with the government?

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It was easy to reduce debt in Sim City. You configured your budget to turn a profit then just left the game running.

But, if i remember correctly, if your taxes are too damn high, people will start leaving the damn city, then you'll go red again . The strategy was to tax residential around 5% mark, and tax the damn industries or commercial sector heavily, screw the traffic problems; then screw the damn environmentalist and the recreationist at the same time, you're gonna be green . Same tactic is applied to the heavily growing economies of the world; see the correlation?.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus I don't understand what all this negativism is about. Realize this: US GDP is 11 TRILLION DOLLARS A YEAR. That means every year, the USA creates 11 trillion dollars in wealth. Money that for the most part, did not exist before. The US Federal Government takes a big ass junk of this change in the form of income tax - lets say 30% for the sake of argument. Thats 3.3 TRILLION dollars a year for the Federal budget. Now you tell me this, and I'll assume its true again for th esake of argument: Now if the USA is paying just 50 billion dollars a year on a 1,300 billion dollar debt, thats some good interest! At less than 4% a year, try and get that for your house or car! Now if the USA wanted too, it could pay back the debt in one year, all it would have to do is either raise taxes slightly, or cut down a 1/3 of the government. Or, if we consider what debt really is - a loan, it has 10-50 years to pay it back with no consequence. If you are buying a house for $120,000 (and purchase it via a loan) and making $340,000 a year it is a comparable to the state of the Federal Government. Now, if I were to tell you that you are fiscally irresponsible for buying a 120k house when you are making 340k a year, you'd laught at me. Why is it different with the government?

So in essence you're trying to make the justification for continued borrowing (along with ever compounding interest payments) from countries such as Communist China.

I'd say that mentality is either zealous or traitorous, or both.

quote:

Originally posted by Trancer-X So in essence you're trying to make the justification for continued borrowing (along with ever compounding interest payments) from countries such as Communist China. I'd say that mentality is either zealous or traitorous, or both.

Does it matter who loans us the money?

If we buy Chinese goods (and we do, we have a trade deficit with them) why is it any less moral to have them loan you money?

If anything, it would be all the better that immoral countries give us loans. If immoral countries are willing to actually pay the US 50 billion dollar upfront just for the promise that the US will eventually pay them back with less than 4% interest a year, then by all means let them at it!

Because you know what? Once they give the US the 50 billion dollars (and thats what it is - if you are in debt - it means people give you money) they have no gaurantee past the honest word of the USA that they will ever see a dime of it back.

Realistically, you'd want all the immoral countries to own your debt, because if they do, and they do something immoral, you simple refuse to pay back your debt to that country until they shape up, and the world will love you for it.

For instance, the USA can say if China nukes Taiwan they won't pay back their debt to China - who's going to say the USA should do otherwise? So now before going to war with Taiwan China must realize at the very minimum it will cost them 50 billion dollars before the first bullet is shot.

Of course it can also put pressure for China to reform - if you don't give people some more human rights, we will only pay you 1% interest - what is China going to do? Go to the WTO which it is not a full member of and say the USA is being bad for wanting them to be good?


It is my belief that this is why the USA does indeed have foreign debt, not because it needs it financially but because it wants it politically. 4% a year an't a lot, but its more than nothing your right - but that 4% buys you lots of political leverage.

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quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Realistically, you'd want all the immoral countries to own your debt, because if they do, and they do something immoral, you simple refuse to pay back your debt to that country until they shape up, and the world will love you for it.

Realistically, I'm really starting to question whether you are just full of hot air or if you are actually under the assumption that you know what you're talking about.

If China wanted to wage economic warfare all they would have to do is start selling the $122 Billion they own of our National Debt. Our dollar is at the mercy of foreign investors and it doesn't take a economist to figure that out.

quote:

Since 1969, the federal government has spent more that it received in revenues every year. Even supposed single-year surpluses never existed, but were merely an accounting trick based on stealing IOUs from the imaginary Social Security trust fund. Remember that the total federal debt continued to rise rapidly even during the claimed surplus years. Since Congress is incapable of spending only what the Treasury takes in, it must borrow money. Unlike ordinary debts, however, government debts are not repaid by those who spend the money – they’re repaid by you and future generations. The federal government issues U.S. Treasury bonds to finance its deficit spending. The largest holders of those Treasury notes – our largest creditors – are foreign governments and foreign individuals. Asian central banks and investors in particular, especially China, have been happy to buy U.S. dollars over the past decade. But foreign governments will not prop up our spending habits forever. Already, Asian central banks are favoring Euro-denominated assets over U.S. dollars, reflecting their belief that the American economy is headed for trouble. It’s akin to a credit-card company cutting off a borrower who has exceeded his credit limit one too many times. Debt destroys U.S. sovereignty, because the American economy now depends on the actions of foreign governments. While we brag about our role as world superpower in international affairs, we are in truth the world’s greatest debtor. Like all debtors, we are not truly free. China and other foreign government creditors could in essence wage economic war against us simply by dumping their huge holdings of U.S. dollars, driving the value of those dollars sharply downward and severely damaging our economy. Desmond Lachman, an economist at the American Enterprise Institute, states that foreign central banks “Now have considerable ability to disrupt U.S. financial markets by simply deciding to refrain from buying further U.S. government paper.” Former Treasury secretary Lawrence Summers warns about “A kind of global balance of financial terror,” noting our dependency on “the discretionary acts of what are inevitably political entities in other countries.” http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul213.html

quote:

Originally posted by Trancer-X Realistically, I'm really starting to question whether you are just full of hot air or if you are actually under the assumption that you know what you're talking about. If China wanted to wage economic warfare all they would have to do is start selling the $122 Billion they own of our National Debt. Our dollar is at the mercy of foreign investors and it doesn't take a economist to figure that out.

seems like you're one of those pessamistic doom-sayers who's always thinking about the end of the world.

To me right now the weak dollar is fantastic - its great for exporting!

i'm able to sell way more product to overseas accounts because i can take advantage of lower prices comparitive to what they can get in their coutry using their currency. This in turn ramps up american manufacturing which benifets greatly the US economy.

plus yoepus' analysis of american debt is spot on the national debt compared to the overal GDP is well managable, plus the return of interest american is getting is pretty good. It'd be unwise not to invest your money like that. Of course the political game is a big part of it (probably the biggest).

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quote:

Originally posted by Trancer-X Realistically, I'm really starting to question whether you are just full of hot air or if you are actually under the assumption that you know what you're talking about.

Come on now, don't lie to yourself - realistically you started questioning whether I m full of hot air from my firstpost

quote:

If China wanted to wage economic warfare all they would have to do is start selling the $122 Billion they own of our National Debt.

Look if I were China I would sell all my US debt as soon as possible too - not because I don't like the USA or because I think the dollar is weaken, not even for the fact that it hinders Chinese political autonomy, no, I'd simply do it because its a bad investment.

If China is investing 122 billion dollar for less than a 4% annual return they're stupid. They would be much wiser in investing with in their own economy/buying their own debt. Their GDP is growing at much higher % annual (around 5-8% according to estimates) and this trend is predicted to continue in the short term (5 years).

quote:

Our dollar is at the mercy of foreign investors and it doesn't take a economist to figure that out.

Can you please back up this claim of how the US dollar is at the mercy of foreign investors? I have demonstrated quiet clearly I believe how it is the exact opposite - how foreign investors are at the mercy of the USA.

Can you give me examples/analogies how this would be otherwise?

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