Registered: Aug 2002
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
I just proved that the moon is falling.
What follows is an interesting science thought that I came up with; one of those "what if..." moments. Comments and criticisms are encouraged. I found myself puzzled with the following physics question:
Tidal generating stations have recently become a popular renewable energy source... you generate power by using the gravitational potential energy of water at high tide to turn turbines. This gravitational energy comes from the moon's pull on the water on the surface of the Earth. Now the law of conservation of energy dictates that when we harnass the energy in this system, it's gotta be coming from somewhere. My question is this... are we in fact robbing the moon of it's gravitational potential energy? In other words, will using tidal energy cause the moon to fall to the Earth, and if not, where the hell do those extra Joules of energy come from?
I have examined this problem from a dynamics standpoint as well (instead of from a conservation of energy standpoint) and the result seems to be the same. The center of gravity of the Earth has to be moving closer to the moon when the water is falling (falling water pulls the Earth upward with as much force as the force with which the water is pulled downward.) Since the force that makes all this happen is external, the Earth is not equivalently being forced downward as the water is given gravitational potential energy again. Therefore, the Earth is moving upward in a non-balanced fashion whenever such water is falling, and has a net displacement in the direction that is toward the moon.
So the moon is falling!!! We're all going to die!!! Stop tidal generating stations immediately!!!!
(PS... I'm not sure if this has been posted or written up before, but it is nonetheless a rather interesting result. Of course, we'd have to generate a LOT of tidal energy before the moon ever fell noticibly)
___________________
I am nobody. Nobody is perfect. Therefore I am perfect.
Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Toronto - North York
noone has ever been on the moon, YET.
Jan-22-2005 07:18
VERTiG0
cunning linguist.
Registered: Dec 2003
Location: no longer Cambridge, Ontario, Canada
i'm from the internet
Jan-22-2005 09:46
DJ_Elyot
Havarti > Gouda
Registered: Aug 2002
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
quote:
Originally posted by Slag
Actually, the moon is getting farther away from the earth a few centimetres every year, and yes it's because of the tidal effect. http://www.mikekemble.com/space/discovery2.html
That's a different effect though due to the earth's rotation and the dragging force of the tidal waters. In this case, the moon gains gravitational potential energy and the Earth loses angular momentum.
New question: how much tidal energy would we have to generate to negate that effect and cause the moon to remain stationary? Then we'd only be stealing energy from our Earth's rotation!
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Jan-23-2005 04:45
arek
african messiah
Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Toronto - North York
NOONE HAS EVER BEEN ON THE MOON.
prove me wrong.
Jan-23-2005 04:49
DJ_Elyot
Havarti > Gouda
Registered: Aug 2002
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
THERE IS NO SUCH COUNTRY AS MADEGASCAR.
prove me wrong.
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Jan-23-2005 05:10
DigiNut
You kids get off my lawn!
Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto, Self-proclaimed Centre of the Universe
It's called an orbit.
Let's hypothetically say that your "theory" were true - if that were the case, it would also be true for electrons orbiting atoms, and every atom in the universe would eventually collapse on itself. And considering their size, they'd collapse on themselves in an infinitessimal fraction of a second.
It should therefore be pretty easy to see why your hypothesis can't possibly be correct.
Tidal energy is based on a principle similar to the centrifugal/centripetal force from revolving motion in classic mechanics. That force does not slow down the revolutions or even affect the motion at all. It is in fact a "side-effect" of the motion itself - since the revolution requires a constant acceleration (and thus a force which is constant in magnitude), the aforementioned forces are in opposition to the accelerative force. Everything balances out - no energy is (under ideal conditions, neglecting air resistance and such) lost or converted in that process.
Of course, the moon's orbit is not perfectly circular; it's elliptical. That's why the moon is actually gradually getting further away from the Earth. But that has little if anything to do with your suppositions.
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Jan-23-2005 05:21
arek
african messiah
Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Toronto - North York
noone has ever been on the moon, the radiation between the moon and earth from the sun is so great it will fry the person in a spacerocket like a frenchfry at mcdonalds.
Jan-23-2005 06:16
Magnetonium
Dubstep = Douchestep
Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Port Burwell, Ontario, Canada
quote:
Originally posted by arek
noone has ever been on the moon, the radiation between the moon and earth from the sun is so great it will fry the person in a spacerocket like a frenchfry at mcdonalds.
I knew about the moon getting further away from Earth every year ... my question is as follows:
is the Moon going to escape the Earth's gravitational pull sometime in the future, considering the pace it it moving away from our planet? If not, what will happen then?
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Jan-23-2005 12:56
DigiNut
You kids get off my lawn!
Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto, Self-proclaimed Centre of the Universe
quote:
Originally posted by Magnetonium
is the Moon going to escape the Earth's gravitational pull sometime in the future, considering the pace it it moving away from our planet? If not, what will happen then?
Yes, eventually it will, but not in our lifetime, and not for a very long time. I guess what will happen then is that we have very long days? I don't really get the question - I don't imagine that the human race will even still be alive by then.
Eventually the sun is going to supernova too... but it's not really anything we need to worry about, considering how far in the future that is.
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2048-06-66 - Spastic & Whocares ¶ Although I'm Actually Flattered
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Jan-23-2005 18:28
stren
Strenowski
Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Warsaw, Earth, 1 AU
quote:
Originally posted by arek
noone has ever been on the moon, the radiation between the moon and earth from the sun is so great it will fry the person in a spacerocket like a frenchfry at mcdonalds.
its not that great actualy
So the conclusion is: we should "rob" the moon of its energy even more
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I don't really get the question - I don't imagine that the human race will even still be alive by then.
