"You forgot Poland"
George W. Bush

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quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 "You forgot Poland" George W. Bush

To play devil's advocate (i.e. neocons) for a moment, there really isn't a direct tie between Italy's pullout and the Sgrena shooting incident, at least not one that's directly stated.

However, there is a direct tie between Berlusconi's actions to pull out and the Italian population which by and large did not support going to war in Iraq. The latest shooting incident likely had an indirect effect, however - increasing dissent by the Italian citizens as a conseqence.

Just a minor tidbit.

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Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Another minor tidbit....last week Berlusconi stated publicly that the Italian Government wouldnt pay any more ransoms to get hostages released in Iraq(2 Italian journalists were kidnapped and held for months and a ransom demanded)they at first denied any involvement in the release of the journalists...but everyone knew the Italian Government paid a ransom to keep the electorate happy...and now the pullout...its purely local Italian politics...Berlusconi would do anything to stay in power

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 To play devil's advocate (i.e. neocons) for a moment, there really isn't a direct tie between Italy's pullout and the Sgrena shooting incident, at least not one that's directly stated. However, there is a direct tie between Berlusconi's actions to pull out and the Italian population which by and large did not support going to war in Iraq. The latest shooting incident likely had an indirect effect, however - increasing dissent by the Italian citizens as a conseqence. Just a minor tidbit.

Maybe he's trying to figure out how he's going to get re-elected? It’s pretty obvious the shooting was the last straw that broke the camels back. What do you expect him to do, spell it out for you and the rest of the world? The public was already opposed to troops in Iraq now they're really pissed. Berlusconi has egg on his face and I don't blame him after the way the US handled the incident.

It was probably an accident by a trigger-happy soldier but the way the administration tried to coverup and shift the blame on the Italians was unforgivable. Speeding car, they didn't know they were coming... Bush can shovel that shit to the American public who are willing to believe anything but the Italians weren't having any of it and the pullout is the fallout.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/16/i...ner=rssuserland

this is a very interesting read from the NYT. provides a little more insight as to why ground commanders, Italian and otherwise were not aware of the intelligence operation. in addition to General Marioli not fully being in the loop.

i realize igottaknow has a hair trigger for blame, but it's starting to make more sense now.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/16/i...ner=rssuserland this is a very interesting read from the NYT. provides a little more insight as to why ground commanders, Italian and otherwise were not aware of the intelligence operation. in addition to General Marioli not fully being in the loop. i realize igottaknow has a hair trigger for blame, but it's starting to make more sense now.

That article is yet another example of the US shifting the blame to the Italians. 'If only they shared all of their intelligence with us we would have apprehended the kidnappers and this would never have happened.' Maybe they didn't want the Americans to botch the negotiations and get her killed? Turns out they still managed to screw up by shooting her rescuer. What a joke.

quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow That article is yet another example of the US shifting the blame to the Italians. 'If only they shared all of their intelligence with us we would have apprehended the kidnappers and this would never have happened.' Maybe they didn't want the Americans to botch the negotiations and get her killed? Turns out they still managed to screw up by shooting her rescuer. What a joke.

Not a joke at all.
The Americans followed protocol like they (and any other country) would at any military checkpoint around the world.
Why is this one so different?
Because they're Italian and don't like the U.S.?
This vaugue link between the U.S. Government and a known communist jounalist, created by the media, just doesn't wash and is riddled with speculation being pawned as fact.

The fact of the matter is, if the Italians didn't want to be there in the first place; why did they go?
Just so they pull out later and say, "I told you so"?
Obviously they're more narcissistic than benevolent.
I agree with igottaknow; Italy was quick to cave in like a desk of cards after this incident. A hard connection not to make for sure.
But correlation is not necessarily causation and since there are soldiers (and civilian) lives being lost all the time, why point out this particular 'incedent' just to make a case against the U.S.?

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The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."