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malek
drinks your milkshake!



Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Montréal
Are Oslo and Stockholm Rich? Perhaps Not.

NY Times
April 17, 2005
PERSPECTIVE


We're Rich, You're Not. End of Story.
By BRUCE BAWER

OSLO — THE received wisdom about economic life in the Nordic countries is easily summed up: people here are incomparably affluent, with all their needs met by an efficient welfare state. They believe it themselves. Yet the reality - as this Oslo-dwelling American can attest, and as some recent studies confirm - is not quite what it appears.

Even as the Scandinavian establishment peddles this dubious line, it serves up a picture of the United States as a nation divided, inequitably, among robber barons and wage slaves, not to mention armies of the homeless and unemployed. It does this to keep people believing that their social welfare system, financed by lofty income taxes, provides far more in the way of economic protections and amenities than the American system. Protections, yes -but some Norwegians might question the part about amenities.

In Oslo, library collections are woefully outdated, and public swimming pools are in desperate need of maintenance. News reports describe serious shortages of police officers and school supplies. When my mother-in-law went to an emergency room recently, the hospital was out of cough medicine. Drug addicts crowd downtown Oslo streets, as The Los Angeles Times recently reported, but applicants for methadone programs are put on a months-long waiting list.

In Norway, the standard line is that there must be some mistake, that such things simply should not happen in "the world's richest country." Why do Norwegians have such a wealthy self-image? Partly because, compared with their grandparents (who lived before the discovery of North Sea oil), they are rich. Few, however, question whether it really is the world's richest country.

After I moved here six years ago, I quickly noticed that Norwegians live more frugally than Americans do. They hang on to old appliances and furniture that we would throw out. And they drive around in wrecks. In 2003, when my partner and I took his teenage brother to New York - his first trip outside of Europe - he stared boggle-eyed at the cars in the Newark Airport parking lot, as mesmerized as Robin Williams in a New York grocery store in "Moscow on the Hudson."

One image in particular sticks in my mind. In a Norwegian language class, my teacher illustrated the meaning of the word matpakke - "packed lunch" - by reaching into her backpack and pulling out a hero sandwich wrapped in wax paper. It was her lunch. She held it up for all to see.

Yes, teachers are underpaid everywhere. But in Norway the matpakke is ubiquitous, from classroom to boardroom. In New York, an office worker might pop out at lunchtime to a deli; in Paris, she might enjoy quiche and a glass of wine at a brasserie. In Norway, she will sit at her desk with a sandwich from home.

It is not simply a matter of tradition, or a preference for a basic, nonmaterialistic life. Dining out is just too pricey in a country where teachers, for example, make about $50,000 a year before taxes. Even the humblest of meals - a large pizza delivered from Oslo's most popular pizza joint - will run from $34 to $48, including delivery fee and a 25 percent value added tax.

Not that groceries are cheap, either. Every weekend, armies of Norwegians drive to Sweden to stock up at supermarkets that are a bargain only by Norwegian standards. And this isn't a great solution, either, since gasoline (in this oil-exporting nation) costs more than $6 a gallon.

All this was illuminated last year in a study by a Swedish research organization, Timbro, which compared the gross domestic products of the 15 European Union members (before the 2004 expansion) with those of the 50 American states and the District of Columbia. (Norway, not being a member of the union, was not included.)

After adjusting the figures for the different purchasing powers of the dollar and euro, the only European country whose economic output per person was greater than the United States average was the tiny tax haven of Luxembourg, which ranked third, just behind Delaware and slightly ahead of Connecticut.

The next European country on the list was Ireland, down at 41st place out of 66; Sweden was 14th from the bottom (after Alabama), followed by Oklahoma, and then Britain, France, Finland, Germany and Italy. The bottom three spots on the list went to Spain, Portugal and Greece.

Alternatively, the study found, if the E.U. was treated as a single American state, it would rank fifth from the bottom, topping only Arkansas, Montana, West Virginia and Mississippi. In short, while Scandinavians are constantly told how much better they have it than Americans, Timbro's statistics suggest otherwise. So did a paper by a Swedish economics writer, Johan Norberg.


Contrasting "the American dream" with "the European daydream," Mr. Norberg described the difference: "Economic growth in the last 25 years has been 3 percent per annum in the U.S., compared to 2.2 percent in the E.U. That means that the American economy has almost doubled, whereas the E.U. economy has grown by slightly more than half. The purchasing power in the U.S. is $36,100 per capita, and in the E.U. $26,000 - and the gap is constantly widening."

The one detail in Timbro's study that didn't feel right to me was the placement of Scandinavian countries near the top of the list and Spain near the bottom. My own sense of things is that Spaniards live far better than Scandinavians. In Norwegian pubs, for example, anyone rich or insane enough to order, say, a gin and tonic is charged about $15 for a few teaspoons of gin at the bottom of a glass of tonic; in Spain, the drinks are dirt-cheap and the bartender will pour the gin up to the rim unless you say "stop."

In late March, another study, this one from KPMG, the international accounting and consulting firm, cast light on this paradox. It indicated that when disposable income was adjusted for cost of living, Scandinavians were the poorest people in Western Europe. Danes had the lowest adjusted income, Norwegians the second lowest, Swedes the third. Spain and Portugal, with two of Europe's least regulated economies, led the list.

Most recently, the Danish Ministry of Finance released a study comparing the income available for private consumption in 30 countries. Norway did somewhat better here than in the KPMG study, lagging behind most of Western Europe but at least beating out Ireland and Portugal.

The thrust, however, was to confirm Timbro's and Mr. Norberg's picture of American and European wealth. While the private-consumption figure for the United States was $32,900 per person, the countries of Western Europe (again excepting Luxembourg, at $29,450) ranged between $13,850 and $23,500, with Norway at $18,350.

Meanwhile, the references to Norway as "the world's richest country" keep on coming. An April 2 article in Dagsavisen, a major Oslo daily, asked: How is it that "in the world's richest country we're tearing down social services that were built up when Norway was much poorer?"

Obviously, this is one misconception that won't be put to rest by a measly think-tank study or two.


Bruce Bawer,a freelance writer based in Oslo, reports frequently on social and cultural issues.


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Old Post Apr-17-2005 20:34 
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biznology
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2000
Location:

eh, i agree and disagree.

firstly, comparing Norway and Sweden just because they are somewhat related historically, and both Scandinavian is dubious nowadays. Norway for its oil, and either for the fact they didnt industrialize until the early 1900s - which left them far behind everyone else in Eur and N Amer...

plus does he really say that teachers have crappy, poor lives becuase they choose NOT to go to a brassiere or a NY Deli? i think he may have just been in Norway too long, as packing your own lunch, while not always the most fattening nor delicious has always been a smarter idea.

and i know for sure a pizza in Sweden wouldnt cost 40 bucks US delivered even|


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Old Post Apr-17-2005 22:27  United States
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zig
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2004
Location: Dublin,Ireland

Its official.....Norway are the world leaders.......

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/l...ticle942789.ece

Old Post Apr-17-2005 23:50  Ireland
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ShadoWolf
ISOS



Registered: Apr 2002
Location: State of Trance

Maybe someday Canada will be as rich as Norway or Sweden...


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Old Post Apr-17-2005 23:55  United Nations
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Sand Leaper
Tension hunter



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Oslo, Norway

Norway is a rich country. It just doesn't benefit average joe on the street accordingly.


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Old Post Apr-18-2005 00:13  Norway
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

quote:
Originally posted by Sand Leaper
Norway is a rich country. It just doesn't benefit average joe on the street accordingly.


Indeed, it would seem the country is rich and the people are poor.


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Old Post Apr-18-2005 02:52  Israel
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biznology
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2000
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
Indeed, it would seem the country is rich and the people are poor.



if by the people are poor you mean not spending all their money on dubs, versace and drywall mansions, or by poor in, living decently with most every available amenity overall...im not so sure|


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Old Post Apr-18-2005 03:25  United States
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Lira
Ancient BassAddict



Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Brasilia, Brazil
Re: Are Oslo and Stockholm Rich? Perhaps Not.

quote:
Originally posted by malek
a large pizza delivered from Oslo's most popular pizza joint - will run from $34 to $48, including delivery fee and a 25 percent value added tax.

Blimey, I could buy about large 10 pizzas here with 40 U$!

Even from top notch restaurants.


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Old Post Apr-18-2005 03:44  Brazil
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trancaholic
Danish Prophet of Doom



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aalborg

I guess that the article's main message is "Europeans, Scandinavians in particular, and most of all Norwegians think they live in richer societies than the US, and that is wrong. It's the other way around".
Now, the article is pretty well stocked on bad arguments (drink prices in Norway and Spain ), and it seems that the only solid evidence supporting the hypothesis is the statistics. I cannot discern whether these are based on means values or medians? If it's means values (which I guess, considering the reference to GNP), my beef with that is that it is not a very good measure to determine whether a country is rich. I would rather see some statistics on the median income in the country. Being a citizen in a country with a high median income, implies that you are more likely to be well off than if you were a citizen in a country with a low one. No such conclusion can be drawn from means statistics.
Can anyone elaborate on this - maybe point me to some charts comparing income percentiles for different countries?

Last edited by trancaholic on Apr-18-2005 at 13:15

Old Post Apr-18-2005 04:19  Denmark
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DrUg_Tit0
e^(i*pi)+1=0



Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

quote:
Originally posted by trancaholic
I guess that the article's main message is "Europeans, Scandinavians in particular, and most of all Norwegians think they live in richer societies than the US, and that is wrong. It's the other way around".
Now, the article is pretty well stocked on bad arguments (drink prices in Norway and Spain ), and it seems that the only solid evidence supporting the hypothesis is the statistics. I cannot discern whether these are based on means values or medians? If it's means values (which I guess, considering the reference to GNP), my beef with that is that it is not a very good measure to determine whether a country is rich. I would rather see some statistics on the median income in the country. Being a citizen in a country with a high median income, implies that you are more likely to be well off than if you were a citizen in a country with a low one. No such conclusion can be drawn from means statistics.
Can anyone elaborate on this - maybe point me to some charts comparing income percentiles for different countries?


Yes, I was kinda thinking the same thing. Granted that the mean income in the US is a bit higher than in the EU, but an average person is probably more well of in Europe than in the US, simply because having ten poor people and one filthy rich person is not the same as having eleven medium-income people. Besides, the author of the article kinda makes Norway look like Moldavia or something. People drive wrecks and can't eat normal lunches...


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Old Post Apr-18-2005 17:36  Croatia
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London

The first thing you have to realise about that article is why would somebody write it? The answer is cos some people in America cannot stand to be told that in certain aspects, America is not the best in the world and feel it their duty to defend those accusations. Hence the article from some pissed off yank.

Anyway...

quote:
One image in particular sticks in my mind. In a Norwegian language class, my teacher illustrated the meaning of the word matpakke - "packed lunch" - by reaching into her backpack and pulling out a hero sandwich wrapped in wax paper. It was her lunch. She held it up for all to see.

Yes, teachers are underpaid everywhere. But in Norway the matpakke is ubiquitous, from classroom to boardroom. In New York, an office worker might pop out at lunchtime to a deli; in Paris, she might enjoy quiche and a glass of wine at a brasserie. In Norway, she will sit at her desk with a sandwich from home.

Oh my fucking god!!! A teacher brings a packed launch to work and that is an indicator of national wealth is it? You fucking tit! That must mean the UK is as poor as Ethiopia!!

quote:
It is not simply a matter of tradition, or a preference for a basic, nonmaterialistic life. Dining out is just too pricey in a country where teachers, for example, make about $50,000 a year before taxes. Even the humblest of meals - a large pizza delivered from Oslo's most popular pizza joint - will run from $34 to $48, including delivery fee and a 25 percent value added tax.

Can anybody confirm that the average price for a pizza in Norway is $50???

quote:
My own sense of things is that Spaniards live far better than Scandinavians

Well I know for a fact that that is pure bollocks. But wait! What does he back up this rediculous statement with???...cos you get bigger measures of booze in Spain!!! And you people take this guy seriously?! What the hell does that prove?! In the UK in a city you're likely to be payin £2.70 for a pint ($5) but in Eastern Europe you're likely to pay 70p (£0.7 or $1.5) so by this guy's reckoning, Eastern Europeans live better than the British because they get 400% more alcohol for their money!! What a load of balls!!!


As for the "stats" Tranceaholic is exactly right to point out that GNP is based on the mean rather than the median and therefore it has no use whatsoever in comparisons like these. Please understand this - it is very simple - GNP (or GDP) does not DOES NOT provide the average wealth of the citizens of a nation and it never has and never will. I have no idea what the median stats are (and would love to see em if anyone knows?) but the reason GNP is invalid is because in capitalist societies there will be a tiny minority at the top who own most of the weath and this drastically skews the figures. Imagine a country with ten people (like Luxembourg) - 9 people earn £10 a year and one person earns £100 a year. The total GDP is £190 and per capita it is £19 - nearly double what 90% of the people earn. I know that is a very very simplified example but it shows you what happens in reality in GDP/capita figures and why they should not be used. The obvious average wage should have been £10

And to top it all off...I have never heard Norway refered to as the richest country in the world! I'm pretty sure America's GDP is slightly higher! But anyway, I'm not accusing the journalist of lying but if he wanted to compare the two (he also uses "Scandanavia" when he means Norway) he should look at figures such as crime, poverty etc etc...but I dont think he will be happy with his findings...

Old Post Apr-18-2005 19:07  England
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London

Have a gander at these statistics and tell me that journalist is talking bollocks...

USA Norway
Infant mortality rate 6.63/1000 births 3.37/1000

Life expectancy at birth 77.43 years 79.25

% with AIDS/HIV 0.324% 0.039%

Literacy 97% 100%

Unemployment 6% 4.7%

Population below poverty line 12% n/a



Source - CIA. Didn't have Norway's poverty levels if anyone can find it and also much of the data was 2003 estimates so unemployment may be different


Anyway...looks to me like Norway is a better place to live than America so I guess these stats brings this little debate to an abrupt end! And we haven't even brought crime into it yet!

So basically the only thing that says USA is better than Norway is a statistic that cannot be used to compare the average wealth of citizens - nice!

Old Post Apr-18-2005 19:25  England
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