Become a part of the TranceAddict community!Frequently Asked Questions - Please read this if you haven'tSearch the forums
TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Who can stop the rise and rise of China? The communists, of course
Pages (5): [1] 2 3 4 5 »   Last Thread   Next Thread
Share
Author
Thread    Post A Reply
Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada
Read This! Who can stop the rise and rise of China? The communists, of course

I'd have to agree with the below article.
For years now we've been hearing that China-iz-dat-shiznat but do people actually realize what they're saying??

quote:

Who can stop the rise and rise of China? The communists, of course
By Mark Steyn
(Filed: 12/06/2005)

Seventy years ago, in the days of Fu Manchu and Charlie Chan, when the inscrutable Oriental had a powerful grip on Occidental culture, Erle Stanley Gardner wrote en passant in the course of a short story: "The Chinese of wealth always builds his house with a cunning simulation of external poverty. In the Orient one may look in vain for mansions, unless one has the entrée to private homes. The street entrances always give the impression of congestion and poverty, and the lines of architecture are carefully carried out so that no glimpse of the mansion itself is visible over the forbidding false front of what appears to be a squalid hovel."

Well, the mansion's pretty much out in the open now. Confucius say: If you got it, flaunt it, baby. China is the preferred vacation destination for middle-class Britons; western businessmen return cooing with admiration over the quality of the WiFi in the lobby Starbucks of their Guangzhou hotels; glittering skylines ascend ever higher from the coastal cities as fleets of BMWs cruise the upscale boutiques in the streets below.

The assumption that this will be the "Asian century" is so universal that Jacques Chirac (borrowing from Harold Macmillan vis-à-vis JFK) now promotes himself as Greece to Beijing's Rome, and the marginally less deranged of The Guardian's many Euro-fantasists excuse the EU's sclerosis on the grounds that no one could possibly compete with the unstoppable rise of a Chinese behemoth that by mid-century will have squashed America like the cockroach she is.

Even in the US, the cry is heard: Go east, young man! "If I were a young journalist today, figuring out where I should go to make my career, I would go to China," said Philip Bennett, the Washington Post's managing editor, in a fawning interview with the People's Daily in Beijing a few weeks back. "I think China is the best place in the world to be an American journalist right now."

Really? Tell it to Zhao Yan of the New York Times' Beijing bureau, who was arrested last September and has been held without trial ever since.

What we're seeing is an inversion of what Erle Stanley Gardner observed: a cunning simulation of external wealth and power that is, in fact, a forbidding false front for a state that remains a squalid hovel. Zhao of the Times is not alone in his fate: China jails more journalists than any other country in the world. Ching Cheong, a correspondent for the Straits Times of Singapore, disappeared in April while seeking copies of unpublished interviews with Zhao Ziyang, the Communist Party general secretary, who fell from favour after declining to support the Tiananmen Square massacre. And, if that's how the regime treats representatives of leading global publications, you can imagine what "the best place in the world" to be a journalist is like for the local boys.

China is (to borrow the formulation they used when they swallowed Hong Kong) "One Country, Two Systems". On the one hand, there's the China the world gushes over - the economic powerhouse that makes just about everything in your house. On the other, there's the largely unreconstructed official China - a regime that, while no longer as zealously ideological as it once was, nevertheless clings to the old techniques beloved of paranoid totalitarianism: lie and bluster in public, arrest and torture in private. China is the Security Council member most actively promoting inaction on Darfur, where (in the most significant long-range military deployment in five centuries), it has 4,000 troops protecting its oil interests. Kim Jong-Il of North Korea is an international threat only because Beijing licenses him as a provocateur with which to torment Washington and Tokyo, in the way that a mob boss will send round a mentally unstable heavy. This is not the behaviour of a psychologically healthy state.

How long can these two systems co-exist in one country and what will happen when they collide? If the People's Republic is now the workshop of the world, the Communist Party is the bull in its own China shop. It's unclear, for example, whether they have the discipline to be able to resist moving against Taiwan in the next couple of years. Unlike the demoralised late-period Soviet nomenklatura, Beijing's leadership does not accept that the cause is lost: unlike most outside analysts, they do not assume that the world's first economically viable form of Communism is merely an interim phase en route to a free - or even free-ish - society.

Mao, though he gets a better press than Hitler and Stalin, was the biggest mass murderer of all time, with a body count ten times' higher than the Nazis (as Jung Chang's new biography reminds us). The standard line of Sinologists is that, while still perfunct-orily genuflecting to his embalmed corpse in Tiananmen Square, his successors have moved on - just as, in Austin Powers, while Dr Evil is in suspended animation, his Number Two diversifies the consortium's core business away from evildoing and reorients it toward a portfolio of investments including a chain of premium coffee stores. But Maoists with stock options are still Maoists - especially when they owe their robust portfolios to a privileged position within the state apparatus.

The internal contradictions of Commie-capitalism will, in the end, scupper the present arrangements in Beijing. China manufactures the products for some of the biggest brands in the world, but it's also the biggest thief of copyrights and patents of those same brands. It makes almost all Disney's official merchandising, yet it's also the country that defrauds Disney and pirates its movies. The new China's contempt for the concept of intellectual property arises from the old China's contempt for the concept of all private property: because most big Chinese businesses are (in one form or another) government-controlled, they've failed to understand the link between property rights and economic development.

China hasn't invented or discovered anything of significance in half a millennium, but the careless assumption that intellectual property is something to be stolen rather than protected shows why. If you're a resource-poor nation (as China is), long-term prosperity comes from liberating the creative energies of your people - and Beijing still has no interest in that. If a blogger attempts to use the words "freedom" or "democracy" or "Taiwan independence" on Microsoft's new Chinese internet portal, he gets the message: "This item contains forbidden speech. Please delete the forbidden speech." How pathetic is that? Not just for the Microsoft-spined Corporation, which should be ashamed of itself, but for the Chinese government, which pretends to be a world power but is terrified of words.

Does "Commie wimps" count as forbidden speech, too? And what is the likelihood of China advancing to a functioning modern stand-alone business culture if it's unable to discuss anything except within its feudal political straitjackets? Its speech code is a sign not of control but of weakness; its internet protective blocks are not the armour but the, er, chink.

India, by contrast, with much less ballyhoo, is advancing faster than China toward a fully-developed economy - one that creates its own ideas. Small example: there are low-fare airlines that sell £40 one-way cross-country air tickets from computer screens at Indian petrol stations. No one would develop such a system for China, where internal travel is still tightly controlled by the state. But, because they respect their own people as a market, Indian businesses are already proving nimbler at serving other markets. The return on investment capital is already much better in India than in China.

I said a while back that China was a better bet for the future than Russia or the European Union. Which is damning with faint praise: trapped in a demographic death spiral, Russia and Europe have no future at all. But that doesn't mean China will bestride the scene as a geopolitical colossus. When European analysts coo about a "Chinese century", all they mean is "Oh, God, please, anything other than a second American century". But wishing won't make it so.

China won't advance to the First World with its present borders intact. In a billion-strong state with an 80 per cent rural population cut off from the coastal boom and prevented from participating in it, "One country, two systems" will lead to two or three countries, three or four systems. The 21st century will be an Anglosphere century, with America, India and Australia leading the way. Anti-Americans betting on Beijing will find the China shop is in the end mostly a lot of bull.

>> Source <<


___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Old Post Jun-14-2005 22:54  Canada
Click Here to See the Profile for Fir3start3r Click here to Send Fir3start3r a Private Message Add Fir3start3r to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
DrUg_Tit0
e^(i*pi)+1=0



Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

quote:
The 21st century will be an Anglosphere century, with America, India and Australia leading the way.


Erm, yeah, with India having a 3.3 trillion $ purchasing power parity with 6.2% growth compared to the chinese 7.2 trillion $ and 9.1% growth (US has 11 trillion $ and a 4.4% growth, Euro area has 11.0 and 1.2% growth). And without meaning to offend our aussie friends here, I really don't see how Australia will overpower countries like China, Japan, Russia, or the EU.


___________________
1+1=10

Old Post Jun-14-2005 23:27  Croatia
Click Here to See the Profile for DrUg_Tit0 Click here to Send DrUg_Tit0 a Private Message Add DrUg_Tit0 to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
metalgearsolid
I am a sexist



Registered: Apr 2005
Location: For you neo/

allso canada they wont be in the 21st cent

Now some points

quote:
If you're a resource-poor nation (as China is), long-term prosperity comes from liberating the creative energies of your people - and Beijing still has no interest in that. If a blogger attempts to use the words "freedom" or "democracy"

resource poor? we should see? they have a labor force of 700mill and they are all cheap. Also they have a lot of natural resources and the food they grow may not be enough but its enough rice for them.

quote:
because they respect their own people as a market, Indian businesses are already proving nimbler at serving other markets. The return on investment capital is already much better in India than in China.

like Drug tito said look at his

quote:
Mao, though he gets a better press than Hitler and Stalin, was the biggest mass murderer of all time, with a body count ten times' higher than the Nazis (

yeah mao killed some 40+million of his own ppl but hey it was all progress for the country

quote:
Russia and Europe have no future at all

Russia no future? they have a lot of oil and they are the biggest country in the world they have a future just for being so damn big. Europe lots of beauty in the cities same with history problem is they have a aging pop just like japan. Why did the article miss jap? huh are they not important? Europe like the US is accepting hundreds of thousands to enter their country so they should continue. Also in the future do you really think there will be farms where the land needs to be cultivated?

gee i wonder how many times that phrase "no future at all" has been used to describe a nation. Like the times when they said the US was going to end during the civil war and the US won't last because of the divisions between the North and South.

The thing is man ppl have been counterfeiting products from other nations for long back. It wont ruin China but might make them less interesting if they don't fix it.

Old Post Jun-14-2005 23:55 
Click Here to See the Profile for metalgearsolid Click here to Send metalgearsolid a Private Message Visit metalgearsolid's homepage! Add metalgearsolid to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
St_Andrew
I <3 NYC



Registered: May 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

It was still an interesting read tho despite some minor flaws. He does have a really good point about a lot. I think the western world should put more pressure on china, since they rely so heavily on us we could probably get them to change if we tried.

Old Post Jun-15-2005 00:09  Europe
Click Here to See the Profile for St_Andrew Click here to Send St_Andrew a Private Message Visit St_Andrew's homepage! Add St_Andrew to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by metalgearsolid
allso canada they wont be in the 21st cent

Now some points


resource poor? we should see? they have a labor force of 700mill and they are all cheap. Also they have a lot of natural resources and the food they grow may not be enough but its enough rice for them.

They may have some resources but it's either still in the ground or not even close to what they need.
They have made major, major deals in South America for things such as ore, nickel, etc.

quote:

yeah mao killed some 40+million of his own ppl but hey it was all progress for the country


I sure hope you're joking with that opinion...

quote:

Russia no future? they have a lot of oil and they are the biggest country in the world they have a future just for being so damn big.

True, but with the same issues as China; still in the ground and not being taken advantage of.

quote:

The thing is man ppl have been counterfeiting products from other nations for long back. It wont ruin China but might make them less interesting if they don't fix it.

I'd say the real problem is unless they change their thinking, they're always going to be sucking up the bottom dollar when all the real money has already gone and left, leaving only cash through volume.


___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Old Post Jun-15-2005 00:32  Canada
Click Here to See the Profile for Fir3start3r Click here to Send Fir3start3r a Private Message Add Fir3start3r to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
metalgearsolid
I am a sexist



Registered: Apr 2005
Location: For you neo/

quote:
Originally posted by Fir3start3r

I sure hope you're joking with that opinion...

no..i am really not joking. look what we americans accomplished from doing forced labor like china. We became the worlds richest country. If china wouldve kept on going like that they would have been the richest country in the world by now. Just imagine a landlord controlling about hundreds if not thousands of ppl without having to pay them. Their would be some really rich ppl and an even richer country. so in order to progress some need to suffer but in the end it will always come out ok

Old Post Jun-15-2005 00:42 
Click Here to See the Profile for metalgearsolid Click here to Send metalgearsolid a Private Message Visit metalgearsolid's homepage! Add metalgearsolid to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
St_Andrew
I <3 NYC



Registered: May 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

quote:
Originally posted by metalgearsolid
no..i am really not joking. look what we americans accomplished from doing forced labor like china. We became the worlds richest country. If china wouldve kept on going like that they would have been the richest country in the world by now. Just imagine a landlord controlling about hundreds if not thousands of ppl without having to pay them. Their would be some really rich ppl and an even richer country. so in order to progress some need to suffer but in the end it will always come out ok


ehm, this is really too stupid too comment... how can slavery ever be progress?!

Old Post Jun-15-2005 02:32  Europe
Click Here to See the Profile for St_Andrew Click here to Send St_Andrew a Private Message Visit St_Andrew's homepage! Add St_Andrew to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by metalgearsolid
no..i am really not joking. look what we americans accomplished from doing forced labor like china. We became the worlds richest country. If china wouldve kept on going like that they would have been the richest country in the world by now. Just imagine a landlord controlling about hundreds if not thousands of ppl without having to pay them. Their would be some really rich ppl and an even richer country. so in order to progress some need to suffer but in the end it will always come out ok


Actually what made America rich was the industrial revolution which had very little to do with slavery and more to do with a variety of other factors including an abundance of natural resources, technological innovation, large labor pool, etc. Furthermore, what made America REALLY rich was due to the massive economic capitulation of the European economies following WW 1.


___________________
Retro ...

Old Post Jun-15-2005 02:57  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for occrider Click here to Send occrider a Private Message Add occrider to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by metalgearsolid
no..i am really not joking. look what we americans accomplished from doing forced labor like china. We became the worlds richest country. If china wouldve kept on going like that they would have been the richest country in the world by now. Just imagine a landlord controlling about hundreds if not thousands of ppl without having to pay them. Their would be some really rich ppl and an even richer country. so in order to progress some need to suffer but in the end it will always come out ok


Actually it's due to the fact that America didn't have taxes until...the 1st world war? (Someone can correct me on that time frame plz) and businesses flourished because of it; hence the country became wealthy.
When (disclaimer: legitmate businesses) businesses do well, everybody wins.
(Unless you're Enron but that's a whoooole different issue)


___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Old Post Jun-15-2005 03:02  Canada
Click Here to See the Profile for Fir3start3r Click here to Send Fir3start3r a Private Message Add Fir3start3r to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
St_Andrew
I <3 NYC



Registered: May 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

quote:
Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Actually it's due to the fact that America didn't have taxes until...the 1st world war? (Someone can correct me on that time frame plz) and businesses flourished because of it; hence the country became wealthy.
When (disclaimer: legitmate businesses) businesses do well, everybody wins.
(Unless you're Enron but that's a whoooole different issue)


well canada didnt either, actually i dont think many countries at all had taxes before WWI?

Old Post Jun-15-2005 03:10  Europe
Click Here to See the Profile for St_Andrew Click here to Send St_Andrew a Private Message Visit St_Andrew's homepage! Add St_Andrew to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
TheNobleEu
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada

quote:
From the article
China is (to borrow the formulation they used when they swallowed Hong Kong) "One Country, Two Systems". On the one hand, there's the China the world gushes over - the economic powerhouse that makes just about everything in your house. On the other, there's the largely unreconstructed official China - a regime that, while no longer as zealously ideological as it once was, nevertheless clings to the old techniques beloved of paranoid totalitarianism: lie and bluster in public, arrest and torture in private.


This is unfortunately fairly accurate.



quote:
From the article
Kim Jong-Il of North Korea is an international threat only because Beijing licenses him as a provocateur with which to torment Washington and Tokyo, in the way that a mob boss will send round a mentally unstable heavy. This is not the behaviour of a psychologically healthy state.


This however isn't a fair assessment.

One of the big factors never seemingly discussed in the news is that means of delivery is a much more crucial factor than simple development of nuclear weapons.

The bit with North Korea has been escalading largely over their having developed an ICBM called the Taepo-Dong II, which is capable of striking the western coast of the USA (but telling that to the US public would create a lot of panic). It was introduced to the world when North Korea shot it over Japan, just to prove it could, but also to demonstrate it too had a nuclear deterrent (right after that they then launched their own satellites, just to prove they could do that too).

The USA goes to China all the time and pleads with it, the elder and much larger elder brother, to implore its Korean sibling to behave, with good behaviour being rewarded with American fiscal and humanitarian aid.

Saying therefore that China eggs on Korea to antagonize the USA (ostensibly due to the US position on Taiwan as the authour of the article does not state) is like saying the USA eggs on Japan to piss off China. Sorta but not really, and the authour deigns to explain the assertion. It's a little more complicated than that.

When North Korea fired off its ICBM the USA shit its pants and ordered the nuclear-Carrier battlegroup the USS Kitty Hawk offshore of North Korea (modern parlance of gunboat diplomacy). This was later withdrawn for the second Gulf War, but just a week ago American presence was reestablished by stationing a squadron of Stealth fighters in an American airbase in Japan.

This sort of thing produces chuckles in North Korea, not fear. If there is any country in Asia the US understands the least, it is definitely the DPRK. The USA will never bully the North Koreans into agreeing on the colour of the sky, and the sooner they learn that the better. (They learned little from the Korean War of 1950, it seems).



quote:
From the article
It's unclear, for example, whether they have the discipline to be able to resist moving against Taiwan in the next couple of years.


Not unclear at all. As long as Taiwan doesn't proclaim independence, China won't act. Taiwans knows this and is biding its time.



quote:
From the article
China hasn't invented or discovered anything of significance in half a millennium,


Are you crazy, bub? Oh wait, now I know you are:


quote:
From the article
I said a while back that China was a better bet for the future than Russia or the European Union. Which is damning with faint praise: trapped in a demographic death spiral, Russia and Europe have no future at all.








quote:
Originally posted by metalgearsolid
Russia no future? they have a lot of oil and they are the biggest country in the world they have a future just for being so damn big.


...But they are currently devolving back to something resembling localized absolutisms. They also have dire issues with seperatism in the provinces in Asia Minor. Hyper-inflation. Maddeningly corrupt bureaucracy. Organized crime. Lack of adequate centralization.




quote:
Originally posted by metalgearsolid
Why did the article miss jap? huh are they not important?


The Japanese economy is in serious trouble at the moment, and is having a political row with China. The subject is extremely touchy in both countries at the moment, over the aftermath of the Japanese invasion of China in WWII. Authour may have decided not to go there (especially if the target audience was Chinese).



quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Actually what made America rich was the industrial revolution which had very little to do with slavery and more to do with a variety of other factors including an abundance of natural resources, technological innovation, large labor pool, etc. Furthermore, what made America REALLY rich was due to the massive economic capitulation of the European economies following WW 1.


America got rich on the industrialization that was the direct result of both World Wars. They were essentially back then (and still are) the arms dealer par excellence, who was very badly needed to continue the war efforts.

Cheers,
-Noble


___________________

Join the campaign to ban political sigs in the Political Discussion / Debate forum!

Last edited by TheNobleEu on Jun-15-2005 at 05:13

Old Post Jun-15-2005 04:19  Canada
Click Here to See the Profile for TheNobleEu Click here to Send TheNobleEu a Private Message Add TheNobleEu to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by TheNobleEu
One of the big factors never seemingly discussed in the news is that means of delivery is a much more crucial factor than simple development of nuclear weapons.

The bit with North Korea has been escalading largely over their having developed an ICBM called the Taepo-Dong II, which is capable of striking the western coast of the USA (but telling that to the US public would create a lot of panic).


Huh? The Taepo-Dong II's supposed threat to the US has long been public knowledge. Hell, Tenet even publically testified to as much way back in 2003:

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/a...orea/index.html

Personally, I view it as less of a threat than the government conveys. Sure it's capable of hitting the US, but:

A) It would have shit for accuracy.

http://www.missilethreat.com/missil...orth_korea.html

and

B) A north Korean nuke would be by any standards an extremely heavy/bulky device. Something analagous to 60's or 70's nuclear warhead sizes and weight.

Add these two factors together and you have a very inefficient, inaccurate, and untested ICBM.

quote:

When North Korea fired off its ICBM the USA shit its pants and ordered the nuclear-Carrier battlegroup the USS Kitty Hawk offshore of North Korea (modern parlance of gunboat diplomacy). This was later withdrawn for the second Gulf War, but just a week ago American presence was reestablished by stationing a squadron of Stealth fighters in an American airbase in Japan.


And this is the exact response needed to counter N. Korea's brinkmanship dimplomacy.

quote:

This sort of thing produces chuckles in North Korea, not fear. If there is any country in Asia the US understands the least, it is definitely the DPRK. The USA will never bully the North Koreans into agreeing on the colour of the sky, and the sooner they learn that the better. (They learned little from the Korean War of 1950, it seems).


Of course the US understands N. Korea the least. NOBODY understands N. Korea. Even China is flustered by N. Korean behaviour. The US won't be able to bully N. Korea, but the intent is to NOT be bullied by N. Korea ... hopefully a little was learned from the 90's.

quote:

Not unclear at all. As long as Taiwan doesn't proclaim independence, China won't act. Taiwans knows this and is biding its time.


This is true. Particularly since, for the first time, the US and Japan have both stated that Taiwan is of strategic interest to them. If China attacks unprovoked, and the US responds, Japan is treaty bound to aid the US/Taiwan. It more or less draws a thick line in the sand to counter the line in the sand drawn by the Chinese anti-secession law.

quote:

America got rich on the industrialization that was the direct result of both World Wars. They were essentially back then (and still are) the arms dealer par excellence, who was very badly needed to continue the war efforts.


America's leading power status and super power status wereconfirmed and exacerbated after WW1 and WW2 respectively. America's wealth and industrial might, not just potential, were well entrenched long before both wars however. For example, America overtook Great Britain as the world's manufacturing powerhouse in the 1890s, well before both wars:


___________________
Retro ...

Old Post Jun-15-2005 05:57  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for occrider Click here to Send occrider a Private Message Add occrider to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message

TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Who can stop the rise and rise of China? The communists, of course
Post New Thread    Post A Reply

Pages (5): [1] 2 3 4 5 »  
Last Thread   Next Thread
Click here to listen to the sample!Pause playbackYahel ID [2006] [0]

Click here to listen to the sample!Pause playback@dam - Pure Energy [Vernon B. Remix] [2003]

Show Printable Version | Subscribe to this Thread
Forum Jump:

All times are GMT. The time now is 19:16.

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
[IMG] code is ON
 
Search this Thread:

 
Contact Us - return to tranceaddict

Powered by: Trance Music & vBulletin Forums
Copyright ©2000-2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Privacy Statement / DMCA
Support TA!